Sponsor Shout out!
This episode is sponsored by the International Society for the Study of Trauma and Dissociation (ISSTD). The International Society for the Study of Trauma and Dissociation is an international, non-profit, professional association organized to develop and promote comprehensive, clinically effective and empirically based resources and responses to trauma and dissociation and to address its relevance to other theoretical constructs. To learn more and become a member, visit: https://www.isst-d.org/ Visit https://cfas.isst-d.org/ to access educational offerings for both professionals and non-professionals
Overview
What happens when compassion meets competence—and lived experience leads the way? We invited Anne Nicely and Lexi M., co-founders of Beauty After Bruises, to share how a homegrown effort to help one survivor of dissociative identity disorder expanded into a nationwide bridge for people living with complex trauma and dissociation. From funding care to educating clinicians, their mission is simple and urgent: make healing possible, practical, and grounded in research.
We unpack the real differences between trauma informed and trauma competent care, why the best therapists’ rosters are often full, and how short trainings can’t substitute for years of learning with complex PTSD and DID. Lexi explains why she chooses anonymity for safety and modeling boundaries, while offering rich, accessible psychoeducation through articles, symptom management guides, and hope-centered resources. Together, we explore the daily practices that prevent burnout—tight boundaries, humor, brief news windows, playful resets, and a “hope folder” of wins—so survivors, families, and helpers can keep going.
The conversation gets specific about consent and communication. Families often want to help but can overreach; meta-questions like “Would it help if I asked about this?” and “Is this helping or hurting?” return agency to survivors and protect pacing. We highlight practical stabilization: check basics first (sleep, food, water, movement), ask “What do I need right now?” and, if stuck, reverse engineer by testing a few supports. Anne and Lexi also share what scale could look like with serious funding: year-long therapy grants and more robust therapy boxes for those without local clinicians, ensuring continuity and real foundations for healing.
If you care about complex trauma, dissociation, and the path from buzzwords to better care, this episode offers clarity, candor, and grounded hope. Listen, share with a colleague or loved one, and tell us your biggest takeaway. If it resonated, subscribe, leave a review, and pass it along to someone who needs honest encouragement today.
Chapters
- 0:00Welcome And Guest Introductions
- 1:50ISSTD Sponsorship And Resources
- 3:00Founding Beauty After Bruises
- 8:20Lived Experience And Anonymity
- 12:20Building Tools, Vetting Training, Outreach
- 17:20System Gaps And Clinician Capacity
- 20:30Burnout, Boundaries, And Joy Practices
- 29:40Realistic Hope And Trust With Survivors
- 36:10How Awareness Of Dissociation Has Evolved
- 46:00Trauma Informed Versus Trauma Competent
- 52:30Well-Meaning Harms And Family Boundaries
- 1:01:20Asking Better Questions And Agency
- 1:07:00Moments Of Impact And Community Feedback
Full Transcript
Welcome back to the How We Can Heal podcast. Today we welcome Anne Nicely and Lexi M., co-founders of Beauty After Bruises. Beauty After Bruises is an organization dedicated to helping survivors of complex childhood trauma find not just treatment, but hope, community, and the care they deserve. Anne came to this work after a family member's diagnosis with dissociative identity disorder, closing down her prior business to co-found and now serve as Survivor Outreach Liaison. In this role, she offers a bridge between survivors and the resources that help them heal. From navigating insurance to finding trauma-competent therapists, she works directly with people coping with the impacts of trauma and alongside clinicians in search of tools and effective training. Lexi brings something vital and irreplaceable to the work lived experience. As a survivor of organized trauma with DID herself, she's walked through every level of treatment and now uses her journey to educate, advocate, and remind other survivors that healing is possible. She also models advocacy with boundaries, amplifying her voice and message while staying off camera during our interview today to protect her anonymity and feel safer while speaking up. Lexi's main focus these days is on compassionate psychoeducation, writing articles, symptom management guides, and hope-centered materials for survivors, working with the community, and most of all, bridging the gaps across the range of trauma care. I'm so grateful to speak with these amazing people and share their wisdom and care with you today. So please join me in welcoming Lexi and Anne to the show.
I want to give a big shout out and extend a huge thank you to the International Society for the Study of Trauma and Dissociation, the ISSTD, for sponsoring this episode. If you've been listening to this podcast, you've heard me talk about the ISSTD and the incredible researchers, clinicians, and advocates I've met during my time as a member and a volunteer there. The ISSTD has been delving into the science and best practice of treating trauma and dissociation for over 40 years, and they have a rich catalog of educational offerings for both professionals and non-professionals on their website at cfas.isst-d.org. If you're a mental health professional, I highly recommend you consider becoming a member of ISSTD. I'd love to see you during their live educational offerings and at the annual conference in Portland, Oregon, this March 2026. Visit ISST-D.org to learn more. Ann and Lexi, welcome to the Hell Podcast. I'm thrilled to have you all here and to talk a bit
about the organization you've been involved with for some years now. Thank you very much for the invite.
We're excited to be here.
So let's start with just tell me about Beauty After Bruises and how you got involved.
Do you want me to give it a start here? For those who are watching, you'll notice that Lexi's off camera, so for privacy reasons, and she can go into that when she's ready. But I'll be here and you get to see my lovely mug the entire time. We started just a little over 10 years ago. And it's one of those things where we look back now on it now and just can't imagine that it ever turned into what it mushroomed into because our initial goal, I had a family member who was a survivor of complex trauma and has a dissociative disorder, DID. And we were just navigating everything. Now, this we're going back more than 20 years. So things were, they were not as good as they are now. They're still that close to where they they should be. But 20 years ago, it was even more, it was just nearly an impossible uh option. Where do you go? What do you do? And so after navigating all of that, and sadly, over those years of their initial learning how to where to go and what to do, befriended quite a few other people who were in impatient with them and so forth. And we lost a lot of folks along the way. And it was, it was hard. But we were, as a family, lucky enough that A, our loved one, their primary experience with their abusers was not the family. And so we were able to really support them in every way that they needed, which was very helpful for them. But it also put us in a unique situation where there was because of that support, they had a better chance of surviving without so many complications, for lack of a better way to describe it. And so we just decided, you know what, we're we know nothing about nonprofits. We but we're going to start something where we can make a small difference because there are too many people who have no support. They have no idea where to go, they have no idea how to navigate the entire complexity of the situation. And so that was our original goal. And it was just to help a few people in Pennsylvania if we could help, because that's where I'm from. And somehow or another it just mushroomed and continued to grow and grow and grow. And here we are now, where we support individuals all across the USA with both financial aid and therapy boxes, and we support individuals in English-speaking languages around the world in whatever ways we can with guidance. So it's been a long and amazing journey. So and along the way, we met Lexi and I would say we begged her to join us. We really needed her because I'm just a you know a loving person who wanted to be helpful, but I don't have lived experience. I didn't know really what I was doing. So she set me on the straight and narrow. And so I'm gonna let her do probably the majority of the talking.
Yeah. Well, hi everybody. So my name's Lexi. I am also a co-founder of Beauty After Bruises and a trauma educator. As a survivor of pretty complex and organized trauma myself, not only do I try to use that lived experience and that and dissociative identity disorder as a way that informs navigating kind of all levels of treatment, because my uh trauma history is also additionally organized. We've found it best and safest to the organization as well as everybody, our survivors, if I stay off camera or keep some anonymity during any public outreach of any kind. Um, it's just been the most convenient. But it's also been a nice way to show other survivors who are nervous or they want to do more, but also have their own concerns for safety or their own need for self-protection, a way that they can still be helpful and still be active and exercise those good boundaries and set their own limits, but know that there is more that's available and that people will usually be pretty accommodating and supportive. So it might seem a little strange if you're watching the video version, but I promise usually it gets pretty comfy in just a few minutes. Um but yeah, so like that said, in addition to what Ann was saying about our organization, my personal day-to-day tasks tend to include things like doing all of the trauma education, trying to create helpful materials and articles and symptom management, general psychoeducation, as well as directing folks to other reliable resources outside of us, all the well-vetted, well-loved resources for the support that they need. But as Anne was also saying, when I came on board, it was after this lovely group of people who were just trying to support their loved one, were looking for outside help. They wanted to make sure that if they were going to offer support that it as not having lived experience themselves, how do we do this compassionately? How do we do this ethically? How do we do this in a really informed, uh grounded way, that we not only don't step on toes, but especially above all, that we don't harm anyone in the process. Everything is about trying to make life easier for everyone. And when I came on, of course, I want to protect Anne's loved one's anonymity as well, so and my own, so it's a little vague, but I was experiencing a lot of the same things that Anne's loved one had. I was seeing a lot of the same patterns replicated over and over again of folks not being able to access or fund their care, insurance, abandoning people too early, their loved ones having no supportive tools or understanding of their condition. We had a bunch of outpatient therapists who are either unqualified or just non-existent for the area. And just like the general public and their wider support networks being pretty misinformed
about dissociative disorders, what they look like, if they're scary, terrible things, or if they're natural and adaptive and beautiful. I also unfortunately lost a lot of people along the way, and my own battle was pretty hard fought trying to navigate um those systems. So trying to come on board and strengthen not only the organization from the inside out, but also our outward-facing materials and support and people that was a big passion of mine. I felt like I'd gotten to the place in my own wellness where that was something I could take on, and my education um was where it needed to be to do that responsibly. And yeah, so now in addition to doing the public outreach and the education, a lot of it is also just uh, I don't know, trying to maybe hopefully be some beacon of hope somewhere. Maybe someone will see themselves in some part of my own story or experience and know that, you know, just simply whether they want a quiet, happy life that is very boring, which I'm all for, or if they want to do more, that any of those two options are more than doable, viable, and a wonderful option to aim for.
In a nutshell, we've done everything from community outreach, helping first responders and the medical world understand how to approach those who have dissociative disorders. We work with therapists helping them find really good, reputable research on their own and learning where they can improve their education, how can they find those good resources? Because unfortunately, trauma became a buzzword, and there's an awful lot available out there that really isn't quality, even for a clinician to attend. So we try to bet as many things as we can and make sure that everyone is getting all that they need and all that they deserve on a budget that makes sense, and making sure that everybody has the information, as much information as can be provided, and make sure that it's research-based. So we we find a lot of joy in it. I work mostly with the clients and the therapists, and Lexi does all of the social media. So it's wild. She does all of that and the educational components. And so between the two of us, it is there's probably 120 hours a week of work going on, but we are having a great time doing this.
That's awesome. It stands out to me how many layers of folks you're supporting. You're supporting people who are going through things on their own and trying to find help, families, therapists, like it goes throughout all the different system levels. So that's a lot of work and so important that integration happens, right? That it's not just the person who's saying, I'm struggling. It's also how the family aligns around that, how the community responds to it, how therapists respond if and when they don't have training and where they find that. So it's great that you're able to make those connections across those layers.
And again, that was not our initially our goal, but we realized that you really can't solve one issue without another. And there even came a point in time where we realized that even if, and this has never happened, but let's all hope it does, even if someone just gave us millions of dollars, we wouldn't be able to help everyone find a clinician because they aren't. I wouldn't say they aren't plentiful. That's not necessarily the issue. But when you are a client, you're there for years. The turnover is not fast, it's not a rapid turnover. So as a clinician, you might have 10, 20 people on your client role that are all with complex trauma or dissociative disorders. They're not leaving you for years. And so it's not like they don't exist. They're just very hard to find who aren't already, they're just full, their rosters are full. So it all there are just so many components and trying to really make sense for everyone so that no, because the burnout's big on all ends, on the ends for the client, on the end for the therapist, on the ends for the trainers, on everyone is exhausted and it's very hard work, but it can be accomplished if everyone joins together and holds hands rather than points fingers.
Yes. There's so much in there I want to unpack, but since you just mentioned burnout,
I'm wondering how for the two of you you keep joy alive as you're doing this work, as you're, you know, doing 120 hours of a work week with passion and joy, but also energy, right? It takes energy and it's tough stuff. And it could I imagine, especially with lived experience, whether that's a loved one or and or yourself, like it could push buttons, right? Touch on triggers or anything like that. So what keeps you all? I know you've been doing this work for some time. What's your secret?
That's a fantastic question. Uh, wish I had a great secret for you, but no, you're totally right. This is a very tough, sensitive, very heart-intensive job. And I feel like that has never been more true than in this particularly intensely, quite frankly, traumatic phase that the whole world is going through right now. I think those who have not had experience prior are even feeling that that burnout. Even just general citizens are feeling that heart exhaustion, that soul exhaustion. What do we do? And so in in fields like this, that just gets magnified. We as an organization, I feel like, have gone through many phases and seasons two over the last 10 years, while most of it has been positive growth or just expanding in familiarity or recognition or support or the number of people we're trying to serve. On the back end, what who we're made up of has always been a pretty small, kind of almost skeleton crew operating, trying to pull all the strings as much as we can for people. But it is very hard. We initially, I feel like we had a decent amount of turnover of volunteers, not in not in that anybody, everybody always left when they were ready, but sometimes they just were ready a little sooner than they thought they might be. They had maybe just kind of been full up and just like, hey, I've I've reached the end of my um capacity right now. I'm gonna focus on myself, especially a lot of other survivors. A lot of other survivors really wanted to be very helpful and they were, and they're very wonderful. But it is hard. It's hard to see the inequities, it's hard to not be able to help everyone. It's hard to make those really tough decisions when you've got minimal funds to go around. It weighs very heavy on the heart. It can very easily, yeah, push those buttons, those sensitivities, our own trauma. And I wish there was a good secret, but I do feel like on the back end, we try very hard to practice what we preach. We try to install those moments of self-care to have at least chunks of the day or the week that we agree this is a no-work period. It's gonna be good, we're gonna setting a hard boundary on these few hours, whether it's just no emails, phones off, or taking that self-care, we just need to do that. And being supportive to each other. If somebody else is going through a tough season, or we all have families and illness and chronic uh conditions, there are a lot of things to juggle. And when we see one of the other struggling, try to really have each other's back and pick up slack where possible. But yeah, really stepping back, looking at the big picture, but also really employing that self-care is vital and making sure that many of us also are getting our needs met in therapies and physical care and doctors and trying to make sure that we all stay on top of those. It's very easy to self-neglect, especially uh when you're a giving bunch and really just trying to support each other and notice that and step in and make sure everyone's taking care of themselves. Yeah.
Yeah. That's fair. Sometimes I I swear a lot though.
I know for a while those studies were circulating about how helpful it is for stress levels to discourage.
Well, sometimes it's all I can do. I will walk in the office and she'll just look over her glasses at me. And I'm and then it just goes, okay, today's one of those days here. I just need to say this. And then and then we're okay. But we I think we do a pretty good job of supporting each other and and each other's families and all of our board members and and their families, because it it is a lot.
And um, also, yeah, I was gonna say, thankfully, we are a pretty silly bunch. I'm uh I'm I'm a little goofy, uh, which helps. Uh I I'm I don't mind it. I think it there is some levity, I think, even while we're doing these tough jobs, not even in a gallows humor type way, though I'm sure there's some of that. It's just kind of keeping the energy light, not taking things too seriously, is very, very helpful. And even if we are pulling our hair out one day or frustrated, and just throwing a joke in there sometimes is just it really cuts the tension with the room. It kind of helps us reset. Obviously, it feels much better in the body to do that too, to kind of keep things light. Yeah, I feel like the the laughter of it all is certainly um, I don't know. I feel like it's a little bit more, it's more valuable than is often given credit for. Absolutely.
Um Lexi taught me that we collectively we watch the news together and we do that for we give ourselves about 20 minutes a night to show that even if we're in different places and we're watching it on, you know, via our messaging submittal, are you did you
see this? Okay, so we're gonna do that. We get just enough to know where we are, that everybody's still here, the world is still functioning, we're all okay. We're okay enough, and what we can do if we want to do anything about life, and then when it gets really crazy, and because sometimes it does, you know, when she's working on a great big campaign online and we're getting ready for financial aid distribution, and I'm looking and going, Oh my goodness, we have all of these clients, and clearly we cannot fund them all. How am I gonna say no? And I hate that process, and because I want to say yes to everybody, but you can't, then we will look at each other and say, You want to she taught me, you want to play Nintendo? Oh yeah, and yeah, I swear a lot during that too. I'm not good at I she's been helping me learn, but sometimes that is that's we just need to turn it off, just turn it off for a minute and go. Exactly. That's when you know we just we we just need to go somewhere else.
Yes, exactly.
Exactly. Yeah, that escapism is definitely very helpful, and it really does like, especially. I don't mean I can't speak for Anne or some of the other people in our organization, but it is pretty tough to not perseverate on an issue, especially when you're really stuck and when you're really feeling the importance. And to even when we've, you know, closed the laptops or we've called off for the day, it's really hard to not just sit there and keep thinking and trying to find another way. How can we make this happen? How can we brainstorm? And sometimes you're not gonna get there, especially if you haven't slept well, the world has been too much, it's all kind of weighing on you. Getting that escapism is actually more important than it can sometimes seem and truly can give your brain that rest, but also make the answers come to you a little bit easier sometimes, or just give that vital self-care. I think we've also had to, especially over the years, really prioritize like celebrating the wins and really keeping that focus and kind of taking the very concentrated time to review them, to honor them, to celebrate them, to focus on them. I even in my own healing, but especially within uh Beauty After Bruises, have a folder on my computer that if maybe somebody shares something really important or how this was helpful to them or improved their life, maybe just taking uh some notes and jotting it down and just throwing that note into into this folder or other little funny things or successes along the way. And when things do get really, really difficult or really draining to pull up a simple little folder like that, something that reminds you of kind of your North Star, what are you doing this for, or that this is while this one decision may not be going our way, or we're really frustrated by this side or the next thing to remember the wins and to really cherish them and take that time out just for some like hope restoring. Like you've really got to have an endless supply of that and being intentional about kind of harvesting it uh sounds silly, but it's actually it's really vital. And I don't know that some of us would have had the longevity if we didn't really prioritize that and keep that pretty front and center.
Yeah, I mean, you gotta keep your eye on the prize, right? How do you want people to feel that you're supporting, right? Yeah. Like, hey, yeah,
well, well, us too, right? Like we feel that way as well. And we want to be able to try to hold space for that and and model it and not just, I mean, I you've all probably heard and thought about the trauma vortex. Like we don't just want to be sucked into so much intensity in a way that we lose our ground, we lose sense of humor or hope. And it's gonna happen in moments, but it's what you're talking about that habit of of noticing it and making a conscious decision, calling out to your friend, it's time for Nintendo.
Yeah, right.
Or just dropping a bunch of F bombs or whatever your favorite first words are, or just telling a joke in the moment where you're feeling the tension creep into your body and your mind perseverating on this problem, and it's you know, it's starting to feel tense and small, and you just find something funny and and the room lightens. And that feels so important and it's a it's a day-to-day thing. We can find whatever the angle is to try to transition us out of those places that start to feel impossible, right? Or like they're not even helping anyone at that point, right? It's not helping you, it's not helping anyone else. And so many folks share, right? Like when you're in that place of I just decided to put everything down and go for a walk. Then, oh, this idea just popped into my head. Yeah.
Exactly. Yes, very often.
So making space for that. Yeah. Yeah.
A walk is really helpful. Breakfast. Fresh air is helpful. Listening for me, I love to just go to a park and listen to children laugh. That that just it just feels good to hear them laugh and to have such joy for absolutely no reason. The slide tickled their tummy, you know. It just that puts you back to where, oh, there's there is good in the world. It's hidden in the those quietest of places, but it's there and it's it's beautiful. And every now and then we do need to just turn off the channel, turn down the noise a little. We need to ground ourselves, we need to take care of ourselves.
And I feel like the sincerity behind kind of just like the way that we approach things, but also how we approach our survivors, it's really important. I feel like, at least from my own experience, but also in helping others, I feel like survivors and and most people are pretty good at telling when you're being full of it or not, when you're kind of being a little Pollyanna with your hope or your encouragement. Sometimes it's pretty transparent and they can pick up on that. And I don't ever want to placate anyone or make them feel like I'm selling them snake oil or pretending like hope exists when they're not in that place. And to be realistic and meet people there, but also be realistic that like we're not hopeful all the time either, that we have these hard times, that this is very heavy and difficult. But here are the ways that we find it, or here are the here's the evidence of the things that I know to be true. I might not have a perfect answer, I might not be able to guarantee anything, but here are the few signs of good news or good hope. These are the concrete things that you can hold on to for now. And let's just hope more reveal themselves over time. But I'm gonna be realistic and level with folks too. And I don't, and I think that creates a sense of trust. And they might not know exactly where we're going or what we're doing, but it's like, at least I know you'll be real with me along the way, and that you're not gonna just fill my head with a bunch of like fake hope that I'm then feel betrayed by when I meet that precipice and I fall. Like I that's gonna be so much worse. And we don't want to ever let anybody feel that way. We're gonna like be honest about tough how tough this can be, but also what are we doing? So maybe if you want to model something similar or try or hold on to this, this is what we're holding on to right now. If you if it's not the same for you, let's help you find one. And just being very transparent and real with people, I think that's way more authentic and honest, and people are willing to put put their hope in you a little bit more when they know that you're gonna reciprocate.
Well, you're holding a wide window of experience that way, right? You're not getting usurped by the impacts of the trauma, but you're also not uh, we'll just say disconnecting or dissociating from from the depth of and the reality of the harm that's been done. Like we need to, I agree with you. I'm just over here clapping along. Like we need to hold a wide window in order to do this work. I think if we're stuck too far on one end, we burn out. If we're if we get stuck on la la la, everything's fine, everything's fine, everything's fine. It ends up feeling like full of hot air or toxic posity or just a disconnect. Like you said, the trust comes from, yeah, I can go there and I can also go here. And we're gonna do that dance. I I'm speaking in terms of therapeutic work, of course, and I know you you do lots of work with different layers and levels, but whether you're teaching or you're in therapy, if we're not allowing that movement, I think we do ourselves a disservice. And if we're not real with ourselves and actually responsive to what's happening with what we're picking up from someone else, then it also just falls flat and isn't as helpful, right? Because sometimes even if things are really hard and we're stuck in that middle between like, oh, this is really hard, and oh, I just want to play Nintendo or I'm gonna tell a joke, like if we're not clear about that, or if we're not like available for connection in the midst of it, that's like another layer, right?
Yeah, it really is. Connection is so important. And I think one thing that a lot of survivors and clinicians wind up turning to is disconnecting because it's hard after a while, it's hard to connect. You've been with so many people as a clinician that you just don't. If I have to talk to one more person today, I'm I I just don't want to. But the same is true for clients, you know, they just don't want to connect with another person because so many have let them down. So many have been full of steam and not honest and accurate, and they just don't want to hear another person. I don't want to, I don't want to hear anything more. I just want a simple answer. So it is important to find that really right balance, and that will vary from one day to the next, from one month to the next, from one season to the next. What works one day won't work the next. And so you have to be open to asking yourself, what do I really want today? What would really make a difference? Because a walk isn't gonna do it, and you know, crying wasn't enough, whatever. I so what can I do that will make a difference today? And and then give it to yourself if you can.
Yeah, and I feel like so much of a lot of the, you know, while we are helping to s set survivors up with their own therapeutic care and are not trying to necessarily provide any type of one-on-one therapy, we're just trying to be a supportive role and help get them connected with the resources they need. Still, so much about trauma is healing relationships. And if they can have a relationship with us, which we're asking them to put trust in us, they're asking for support. The least we can do is be a healthy model for them as well. If things are frustrating or things feel hopeless, or we're just getting hitting walls, especially while we're trying to help them with a problem, if we're honest and authentic with them, but also telling them, okay, this is what I'm gonna do, and maybe end a conversation adding in, this is what I'm gonna do. I know this was really frustrating, or we didn't get where we wanted to go. This is what I'm gonna do. What are you gonna do? And being honest about we need to be, we need to be that good model of what are we gonna do next? What what coping tool do we need? And much like in in therapeutic circles, the there's like a good focus on not just simply throwing symptom management skills at somebody and hoping something sticks, not just simply being like, oh, well, here's a list of tools, go just try what works, but to ask the question of what do I really need? What's the issue here? Like, what am I what am I feeling disempowered? Am I feeling scared? Am I feeling a loss of autonomy? Like, what's the root of it? Let's ask that big question, and then try to find the coping skill or the symptom management that's gonna meet that same need, and kind of modeling a version of that ourselves. We might not be having symptoms necessarily, but we might be having, you know, frustration or hopelessness or whatever, and knowing, hey, this is what I'm gonna do. I'm noticing that this is where I'm at tonight. This is what I'm gonna do to meet that need. What's your biggest need right now? And what are you gonna do? And having those types of conversations as well as modeling those types of behaviors, being intentional. It's all about being intentional, I feel like, making smart choices and asking the right questions, hopefully.
And that question, what do I need right now? What do you need right now? It's a great question. It's something I, you know, circle back to daily, personally and in professional spaces. And then sometimes that's a difficult one to unpack. So you just outlined that process, right? Of, okay, well, what's the heart, what's at the heart of what I'm feeling? Okay, I'm feeling disempowered. Okay, well, what do I need if I'm feeling disempowered? Okay, I need to feel some sense of agency. You know, I'm just gonna clean out that one drawer that's been bugging me. Yeah, which you might not have gotten to if you were just like, what do I feel like? What do I feel like a massage or I feel like uh, you know, all those things are good too, but there's just different angles and there's that different level of specificity we can get to if we're like, okay, what do I need right now? But also look at the the flip of it is oh, I'm feeling just like this icky
feeling in my gut. Okay, so I'm gonna do something movement. Yeah, like and sort of piecing it apart and finding a way through. Because sometimes I've been in that place of asking the question, what do you need right now? And like, I don't, I don't know. Oh no, yeah. Somebody tell me, just tell me something. And oh, write 10 gratitudes in your journal isn't always gonna work, right? So, like the things that we are like they're research backed and we know they're amazing, but it's like it's just a miss sometimes. So getting a more granule there of like, okay, let's let's work through this as a hard moment, we're gonna figure something out. What can we figure out? Oh, okay, that's that's an idea, just go with it and and go from there.
And to let people know if they need to reverse engineer it. That's totally okay. You know, if you genuinely don't know how you feel, you don't know what you need, try a few of your favorite go-tos and you'll probably find out pretty quickly. Not that one, not that, don't need that. This is not helping. And then you land on the one, you're like, oh, so I bet this is probably what was at the heart of this. Oh, I got an epiphany. That's okay too. You might find out what you needed by trying a couple things, and one suddenly sticks. You're like, This is I'm really into this. This is what I didn't know. Oh, there we go. There's the answer. That's what I needed. That's what I was feeling. Like, that's okay too. Whichever form it comes to you, you might you don't need to know necessarily up front, but it those solutions can tell you things. Um, yeah, you can do both directions sometimes.
We need to look at the basics too. I think so many times people forget they just need a glass of water and something to eat and to turn off the television or put down their phone long enough to go to to think of something else to because it's hard to think when you're hungry. It's hard to think when you're, you know, you're not in exactly. You just haven't done the basic needs because I've been so overwhelmed with all of the things that seem so big, and they are big, but you can't tackle them if you haven't met your basic needs first, and then we can look at okay, and now how can we find slowly fine-tune ourselves back into looking at this bigger issue? Because you we can't just tackle the big issue alone. There are so many small things beneath the big issue. So let's start there and then we'll we'll build on it. Yeah, and that's true for all of us. It's so hard. You know, how many times I I don't know if anyone else has ever done this, but I can't tell you the number of times in a given week that I've gone, oh my gosh, I forgot to have lunch. Oh my gosh, I forgot. I you know, I just got so busy doing X or Y that I completely forgot that I I didn't even eat yet, or went outside and forgot to take off my slippers, and I now am at the grocery store with my slippers on.
When we run into each other and we're both in our slippers, we'll just love when that happens.
It's feel normal. You two?
Ah, you and me both, sister. You and me both.
Right.
I mean, I can't tell you how many times I've referred people downstairs. You wouldn't think my top referral as a psychotherapist would be like, do you want to go get a sandwich downstairs and then keep talking? 2 p.m. And you and I asked you if you've eaten, and you said a coffee. I'm like, well, it's 70 coffee and it's 2 p.m. And I think if you eat a sandwich, these problems will feel different and we can work in there.
Right. Yeah, exactly.
So true. Yeah, everything is so much harder when you're hungry or tired or uh unclean. Sometimes uh showers are hard in in survivor world, but sometimes, man, you do that, you're like, wow, that really did solve a world of hurt. I do feel a little bit like a new person all of a sudden.
Some contact with water, right? Hands, face, bath, shower, whatever. Yeah, jump in a lake if you live near one.
Yeah, that's so true.
So, in your work, how do you feel like the two of you have seen awareness of complex trauma and dissociation change in the time you've been doing this?
That's a good question, but I and I don't know if I know how to respond initially.
I feel like we have gone through some waves. So I feel like so. I'm on a bit of the younger side, but I um dove into my healing journey a lot earlier than many people get into that. So, but also I myself was very unaware when I was young. I mean, I was a kid for the first, you know. But at the time that I was introduced, there was so little information and understanding, especially at least in the public-facing zeitgeist. Like we had plenty of great trauma work behind the scenes, but that was definitely not in the zeitgeist. I didn't know what DID was. When I eventually learned, I was like, oh, I guess I do know it by a different name or a different archetype, basically, of like what it was supposed to be and what it was supposed to look like. And of course, you know, the dangerous, the Hollywood caricature of it. But that was all that I knew at the time as well. And that obviously, thankfully, has shifted quite a bit recently, but that was that's still kind of stubborn. That's still in people's awareness that while I would say that the wider world has become so much more trauma aware. I definitely would not say that they are trauma competent. I think there is some awareness, there's some awareness of dissociation. People use that word, even if they sometimes say disassociation. Well, all the progress where it's coming. They know what that means a little bit. It's getting used a little bit more, and oftentimes correctly. Not always, but oftentimes. So that's definitely improvement. And just in general, I feel like in the mental health space and treatment providers, the idea and the concept of trauma of dissociation, these are more commonly known terms and they're often used correctly. I think I've said somewhere else too the last few years, especially at the beginning of the pandemic, the pulling from the book title, The Body Keeps the Score, has also become a more of a clip that the general public might even say and use. They might not fully understand the bones behind it and all of the details of some of these things, but they at least understand the concept and you've at least got a hook. Somebody here is at least loosely familiar with some of these topics. And maybe we can help guide them to fine-tune them. Um, I think it has definitely improved. However, I would say that while that increase in visibility and just like familiarity with terms, that doesn't necessarily always translate into true innate understanding, a real true understanding of these models, these principles, how they work, how trauma functions, how it works in the brain. And of course, then what healing looks like. I think some people learned some of these things and then still assumed it's gonna be a pretty quick and easy process. They've learned about some things like EMDR,
and here that can be a quick rehabilitation program, which for some people it absolutely can be, but for others, it's either not gonna work or it's gonna still be long. I feel like those types of details are sometimes where we're still lacking. I think that we sometimes miss them in therapeutic spaces as well. There is a kind of a bit of a tendency to go for maybe a weekend training and you've got a lot of training and you've got a good start, but to me, that's very much a start. That's that's a start. And but some people do just kind of stop there. They think they've got it, they know they've got the rest. And a lot of the work that we do is sometimes in in chatting with therapists who also call or people who are training or young students is to let them know maybe a little bit of what they don't know yet, how much they maybe don't know. We're kind of introducing that idea. Actually, there's a whole world for you, and here's maybe some places you can fill in those gaps. I think we did a very meteoric rise to awareness that happened in a very quick and concentrated amount of time, but then the longevity to follow that up and keep that learning going was maybe not necessarily there. And we're trying to do that part, trying to help with that part.
Yeah. And I you encapsulated that perfectly because when we started, that was before I want to say it was before the internet was something everybody really understood. You had a little bit of access, but a lot of it was still libraries, so you had to go to the libraries to find anything.
The younger generation had it.
The older ones still I was still going to the library because I didn't quite understand how to, and I didn't trust the internet at first because I didn't understand how it worked either. But regardless, there there was a very big shift because it, you know, and originally, even with our loved ones, clinicians at first, even they were saying, Look, this is new to me. I I was told when I went to college that I would never meet a person who had an associative disorder. And so here we are, and now I have this person, and I don't know what to do, I don't know how to move forward, and quite honestly, I don't even know who to consult with. So that has come a very long way. And that now there are lists of individuals that you can access who are willing to do consultations, who are willing to help with training. And there was this huge bubble where we got a very large number of clinicians who will now say, and I don't mean to sound condescending, it might come off that way, but it's not that to say I'm trauma informed. And and that really does often mean that they went to some, you know, a Saturday six-hour, 12-hour session and got a nice certificate. But being informed, and no offense, again, if that's where you are, that's wonderful. That's step one is to be informed. But your client is far more than informed. You know, they have lived it and they need you to be more than just informed because you need to know how to help them dismantle all that happened and help them unpack it and help them rebuild what was never built in the first place. That foundation in the first place was it just wasn't there. And so how we're seeing improvement there, that that those things are now accessible. And when I think when we first before we started the the organization, there was that understanding that most things understood about dissociative disorders were sort of just in clinical experiences. And you had a lot of theory and a lot of conjecture that a lot of it was correct, thankfully. We know that now. But now there is science behind it, and now you can actually pull out research documents and things which didn't exist 20 years ago in plethora, anyway. They there were few.
It's just inaccessible. They were in that very academia, very highbrow, inaccessible language, whereas now I feel like we've got better accessible language people understand.
And it helps everyone. So we've seen a big jump and an improvement. And now I think we're also seeing, even within the community of clinicians, go, oh, I can't just do CBT, DBT, EMD, or I might need four or five different ways to look at this because every part of every person might need something different. And so that I mean it's all it's all been in the right direction. It's it's I wish it could go a little more quickly for clients. But at the same time, it has to go at the speed that it has to go because we need everyone to really be fully and you know, even clinicians to be fully invested in what they're doing, or it doesn't work. So I've seen great strides in that. There and there were moments where you just you I would get frustrated when trauma focused and was the big thing and and trauma informed, it would just it would break my heart because it people would say, Oh, I I met this person who said they were trauma-informed and then they didn't know what to do. And then and you'd have to explain that that the word informed doesn't necessarily mean educated and competent. They really are two different things, and but we see a whole lot more people now who are trauma competent, and it's that is refreshing.
Yes. And informed can be any amount, like it could be a one-hour training, it could be we talked about it in a class I had, but I've never worked with anyone who's really had complex trauma, or I don't really know how to define complex trauma, or I've never seen dissociation, or I don't believe it exists. Like someone could say they're trauma informed, but still not understand dissociation. So there's a lot to parse out there. And someone recently on the podcast, I'm trying to remember who it was, maybe it was Janina Fisher, was saying, if someone's interviewing a therapist, ask them about their specific trainings. Like what certificates do you have? What trainings have you completed? Oh, I see a little kitty coming on screen on video, get a bonus. That's right. But to get more specificity in that, because then, you know, I think as there's more awareness and it's spreading, there's wonderful gifts and challenges of that. But one of the gifts is consumers, clients can just look it up. Like, what is this approach? And does that sound good to me? Or does that work with what I am aware of that I'm working with? And you can get a little more information that way.
Absolutely.
I'm curious with folks who support, because you work with again all those layers. If you're looking at maybe families, therapist systems around folks who are working with complex trauma symptoms and associative symptoms, what common like efforts that just don't quite work? Do you see? Like well-meaning harms do you see come to play in those uh exchanges?
That's a great question. And I I could answer, but I do think it would hurt some people's feelings. I know, yeah. Well, because well-intentioned individuals do make mistakes, but it's not because they're well-intentioned, you know, and you can't pray it away. That's one.
Yeah.
I think that's the biggest one we see is that you know, all you need to do is believe and it will and it and I wish it were that simple. If it were, there wouldn't be complex trauma. If it were, there wouldn't be individuals with dissociative disorders. Or I just really wish that my loved one would just accept that this happened when they were a child and that they're not a child anymore. Get over it. Yeah, kind of a get over it, but they're being as nice as they can without saying that. But that's what they really mean is I I wish that my loved one could just do this, or the guy I work with. I wish he would just understand that his father did this when he was a kid and now he's fine. And that again, if it were that simple, this wouldn't be an issue. There wouldn't be a diagnosis of PTSD, let alone a complex PTSD or dissociative disorders.
Yeah, sometimes a long arc of treatment is internally sharing that information, that it's not the past anymore, and exposing the nervous system to cues of safety that are present and slowly over time shifting or allowing to evolve the responses that are based in early childhood. And that also dismisses the power of our development and when things happen during development, what that can do depend depending on the timing, but across the board, right? It's so Much more powerful if these things are happening, especially repeatedly as we're developing, is very different than something happening once when you're 43, when you've already got this basis in your nervous system of maybe safe enough relationships.
Yeah. And I feel like in a similar vein, but also slightly different. I think sometimes in uh in a swing of radical acceptance and absolute love, and I'm gonna be the most supportive loved one to my loved one. Sometimes I think there can be almost on the other side like an eagerness to know too much or to want to know everything, to either go on like a bit of a fishing expedition for all of the trauma or all of the parts. And that's one thing that survivors themselves tend to struggle with that can present very differently for different survivors. But when the loved ones are also kind of trying to do that, it may be certainly pushing the survivor much too far or crossing a bunch of boundaries in process that the survivor for themselves hasn't had time to learn or negotiate or even know where their own boundaries are on these topics, or that particular part might have different boundaries on what's being asked. And a well-meaning attempt to show how comfortable they are with everybody inside, how much it's totally fine who's around in the house, or what their symptoms are. Sometimes there can be a bit of a, yeah, a little bit of a fishing expedition, or a little bit of uh allowing some of the trauma and the symptoms to kind of run a little bit rampant when actually it's a little destabilizing to the survivor themselves, and there isn't like a good system of communication for what do we do when this happens? Is this safe? Is this advantageous to my body? Do I just need to be somebody else for the evening? And that's, you know, totally fine. And that's what we've agreed with our system. Absolutely, like that might be true for somebody, but for somebody else, it might be like anytime this is happening, it's actually very destabilizing, and we haven't gotten far enough. And that part doesn't understand enough of time or place or safety that says actually not helpful to encourage them. Like, I don't know, there's just
it can present so differently for everybody. And yeah, I do occasionally see loved ones being over-eager to the detriment of the client, and they haven't had time to yeah, negotiate those boundaries or those systems amongst themselves, between themselves.
I think it's it can be hard for a survivor to say to mom or dad or a friend or an aunt or an uncle, you really don't need to know the names of my parts. You really don't need to know their ages. And I appreciate you wanting, but but it's hard to say that to somebody that actually cares.
And there's some that might not genuinely be okay. You know, there's some where that's fine, but for some, yeah, it's it is asking too much, it's going too far, it isn't appropriate for that specific relationship. And trying to find your voice to say that when you know they're being well-meaning can also be so much harder. It's even harder to say, please stop or sexually. I know you're trying to do something loving, but it's actually a bit destabilizing. Yeah, that's it's really hard when you know someone is coming from a loving place and not just ignorance or bulldozing your boundaries. Like that's a little bit clearer sometimes. It's actually even harder than sometimes to speak up to someone who is bulldozing you, but I feel like there's a whole lot of nuance and heartache when you know someone is doing their best and it's still hurting. Oh, yeah, it's really tough. It's tough.
I find the questions about questions to be helpful in this way. Like, can I ask you about this? Like, do would it be helpful for you if I asked you about your parts? And then someone can be like, No, it wouldn't be helpful today, but maybe it'd be helpful after I've been doing some more work. So let's check in in the next season or let's check in in a year, or yeah. But I like I feel like when we're stumbling, that's something I go to. If I'm like, oh, I find myself in my head, should I ask this? Should I not ask this? Is this gonna upset them? Wouldn't it upset you if I asked you about this? Right. Do you want me to ask you about this? No, okay.
Exactly. Then we all know where everyone stands, and that comes in really handy.
Approaching it for sure, but it's not like a full where there's so much, you know, like backpedaling or having to assert that response that you were just saying, Lexi. Oh, now I feel like I have to. They're trying to be loving, but I have to say no, and it's confusing and all those things.
Yeah, I feel like if somebody asked that question, you you can kind of somewhat assume, okay, they've probably prepared themselves for me saying, like, no, that's not okay. I'm hoping so. So at least they've opened the door for that to be a safe option for me to say. And yeah, I love that that question. And I think honestly, one of the one of my favorite things, and I I'm sure I've probably shared this before, but one of my favorite things that somebody in my own life did and said that I find it's very helpful for people who are supporting, very much like you just said, of if you're not sure if something you're doing is helping or hurting, you can sometimes just ask that, you know, say if you're listening or you're supporting, to just say, is this helping or hurting? You know, like just checking in every now, and then like lets that person gives them the autonomy and the agency to say so. And it lets you you communicate to them, to your loved one, that you are interested. You don't want to be hurtful, you want to be helpful, and that that is where your intention is at. If you're asking that question in good faith, of course, it lets them know, okay, you're okay, then I know where your intentions are at too, but also you're giving me the permission to check in myself. They may not know. I know I have oftentimes been kind of on autopilot or just I'm so nervous, or I don't have good boundaries, or I haven't learned to speak up for myself. Sometimes when friends or loved ones would just ask me questions, what's going on? What's this like? What's this experience like? I just would give them an answer because somebody asked me a question and I would just start, and I never took a moment to pause and go, actually, how does this feel? How does this conversation feel? I'm sharing a whole lot. Is it helping or hurting? I'm actually not even sure. And when they would ask, it gives me a reason to pause and go, how does this feel inside? How do I feel like I've given too much? Do I feel a little uh oh, actually, sometimes it would be the opposite. We'd be like, actually, this is actually really supportive. I feel a lot closer to you. This feels appropriate. I feel like we're bonding, and it's within my tolerance, you know, this is helping. This is good. This, hey, we all learned together. This is good. I didn't know that until you asked. But sometimes it's also the opposite. Maybe we have been going too far and I've just been offering up things that I didn't really mean to. And by asking that question gives me a chance to go, you know, I maybe we can shift. We let's go maybe somewhere else now. Let's maybe try something different. I think I've maybe had my fill on this topic for a bit or something similar, but it's like a loving way, and it gives everybody a chance to pause and check in. Yeah, the questions about the questions. I also don't think disclosures are ever, usually they don't tend to go too bad, especially if you are afraid of asking something or you realize, like, oh, this might get interpreted this way. And I just want to make sure you say that up front. Like, hey, I'm really worried that this might feel like this, or like, oh, I'm a little nervous to ask because I don't, I know it could be taken a bunch of different ways. And hey, you might even know exactly the one way they're thinking, just say it up front and like let them know. And then everyone's on the same page going into that question or going into the whatever whatever your conversation, whatever your phrase you're gonna say. I don't know. Sometimes those little disclosure statements up front really just give everybody permission to feel as they feel, think as they feel, and set those boundaries up front instead of having to rely on their own strength to just speak up in the moment. That can sometimes be very, very difficult. But yeah, setting those things out front.
So I'd love to know from each of you about a fulfilling moment in the work. It could be recent, could be a long time ago, but a moment where you felt like, ah, this is helping, this is going somewhere.
There have been so many. Yeah. There have been so many of those. I mean, it'd be hard to pick one. I might slight someone. I might miss their their moments.
I think while there are many client interactions that are always gonna be the most meaningful when you see something click for somebody, when you see them having like a really hard time and either a resource or a tool that you offered them that they didn't know was there, or normalizing something that they thought for sure they're the only one, and that they're the only one that's gonna go through this, or that they're weird or bad, or any like derogatory, shaming statement they're telling themselves to be that key that lets them know like this is totally okay, like you're totally fine, and this is actually pretty normal. Like sometimes those like little
things actually feel the most impactful, and that they're gonna last somebody a while, and that they I don't know, like it may have genuinely helped turn a page, whether it's for that day or for a much longer stretch of their life. Sometimes getting that page turned is so difficult. And sometimes watching that feels like, okay, this is meaningful and this is impactful, and especially because a lot of the folks that we end up helping don't, or they're seeking a therapist or they don't have one. So they're actually kind of going at life very alone, very on their own. And while we can't do individual therapy with folks, sometimes just being able to get them through a tough night or through the end of a call or kind of shift a script in there while they're while we're waiting, while we're trying to get them more supportive and consistent care can go really, really far and help somebody hold on a bit. And then I think also like bigger picture though, I feel like anytime anybody who is learning, especially the therapeutic space, is interested in what we have to say or share our experiences, that will always be meaningful to me as a survivor. Obviously, I love the work that we do. I love this as an organization, absolutely. But anytime somebody really values our opinion or our feedback, it lets me know that clinicians are very interested in hearing from those with lived experience. So they respect lived experience, that they're interesting in bettering themselves. And having unfortunately seen the uglier sides of this community or the therapeutic space, anytime I get shown that is always encouraging. It always feels good. It restores my own hope in the field, the direction that we're going. And gives I like I very much, I will strongly say I do not appreciate the phrase everything happens for a reason. But I like to make meaning of bad things. If these terrible things had to happen, if I can find some way to move them or put them to use, or if it already had to happen, I at least I wanna, it just always occasionally feels good to be like, okay, at least it wasn't completely off or not, or at least I did something with that. And anytime I can educate or help a clinician or somebody else better understand their clients or better understand survivors at large or trauma or association, sometimes for that brief moment at least, it feels like, okay, there was some purpose that I could put that to, or that negative experience that I had actually with that client or with a therapist or whatever, I can use that to help elucidate something for a current clinician who's going to learn something from that. And it helps it all feel a little less, I don't know, just like suffering. I don't know. It feels like occasionally nice to know, okay, I could turn this into something. This wasn't all futile. I could, I don't know, move it somewhere, give it somewhere to go. I'm not being eloquent whatsoever, but those are the things that sometimes mean the most to me as a in as just like a person, as me and with my own limp experience. Um, so yeah.
It becomes a possibility for healing, right? If you pass it on, if someone asks you, what's this like for you? It's like, oh, because there's such a pattern in the in many fields and in the field of psychology of just observing from the outside and this power imbalance of like focusing on, I mean, yes, academia and research are important and valuable, but we also need to learn to listen. Listening is so central to psychotherapy. And I love that there are more lived experience voices that are supported within the professional community, within conferences, right? Like at that level of like, you you really have something to offer and you've been through it and done some serious work to get this awareness you have. So may we ask? Would you like to care? Because not everyone wants to share. Some people are like, nope, not my thing. I'm moving on with my life. And I don't want to keep thinking or talking about this as a phenomenon, as a dynamic. And some people feel a deep call to, hey, if I had to go through this, I want to share, I want to support, I want to be that person that maybe wasn't there for me or was there for me. I want to continue that legacy. And so having platforms, having opportunities being asked also, right? It can be a part of something that feels healing, right?
Yeah.
Absolutely.
Yeah. I love to get down to the nitty-gritty and talk academia with people as well, but it's the stuff that does the most when they're interested in the what does this look like in practice? What does this look like lived out? How can we work with this better? Sometimes that actually hits way deeper. Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah. Let's look at the fMRI studies and like, thank you, Lauren Leblois and Melissa Coffin and all the people that are doing. Let's like celebrate them. And then let's also be super interested when people even in those positions share they have lived experience. Let's be super interested when, you know, we're looking at a brain scan and then we go, well, how do how do I pick that up in conversation? How do I know that these areas are are lighting up or something different's happening? Or how do I pick up even the difference between I think this one's more observable, like hyper arousal and dissociative symptoms. How do I or dissociative symptoms that contain hyperarousal? How do I pick that up? What's that like for you when in the gas and the break and a million other things are happening at once? So yeah, being able to contextualize it, to humanize it and to have some amount of connection around it. Yes, definitely. 100%.
Now I'll go off topic because that was more important. But but I think the first times that I came home, really, really excited and going, we've done well. I think you might have been with me the you'll have to remind me. The very first ISS TD conference that we went to was it, did we go together? I think we did. I don't I don't remember. But it was a while ago. But but what was odd was to sit at the table because we thought, you know, we'll just put out our little banner and show people what we do and show them a therapy box. And it was it was strange to me because we I felt like I'm no one in this room. I'm not a clinician. I have a unique experience, but not I don't have the clinical experience. And no one's gonna know what who we are, what we do, how am I gonna explain this to all these wonderful brainiacs? And what happened instead was it was almost like a fangirl experience where people were running toward the table going, oh my gosh, beauty after bruises, I've learned about you through my clients, and I've just feel like so important and overwhelmed all at the same time. Like, oh my goodness, these people know who we are. I don't know what to do with this because I thought I thought we didn't really I didn't realize we made such an impact. It was really, really overwhelming and heartwarming.
And then this contextualize that so that it doesn't sound self-important. It was exciting to know that survivors were finding it and they were getting the tools and being overwhelmed by seeing that life applicable. That oh, people are experiencing this. This is beneficial, and they have the a bigger appreciation for the scope.
I think it's really it was it was wild. And and then similarly, we we went to Healing Together conference. Gosh, I hope I said that right. And then we had the opposite situation where it was all clients that were coming up, same thing, you know, like, oh my goodness, I've been using your tools and just really benefiting and so grateful that you're there. And it, those are the things that feel so good to know that it is making a difference. That even during those times when I have to say no to someone who we can't fund you, we we did everything we could and we can't do it. I don't like that at all, as I mentioned before, about $45. Yes, I do. We need several million dollars. But it feels really good to know that no matter that, we there we're still making a huge impact on individuals who are looking forward to that post that comes out every week and looking forward to that new information and that research that's broken down in ways that normal humans can understand it and read it. And it's it that feels really good to know that we are making a difference. And it's not just a group of us who are sitting around trying to pat ourselves on the back, not even close.
Um it's no, I think people who do this work deserve all the pats on the back.
Very true. Same. True, but I think sometimes we're not a lot of them are looking for it though.
No, I mean, yeah, I think that that's rare. It does happen. You know, there's some there's some in every field, there's all kinds of flavors, right? But but I do feel like people who like the two of you are describing have this like earnest, heartfelt dedication for showing up for people who are looking for resources and providing as much of those resources as you can and passing it on, the information, the financial support, the connection to therapists, the connections to training, all of that. It's like I think people who do that should be acknowledged. And it doesn't have to be true, yeah, yeah, by anyone in particular, but I feel like there's hopefully change happening in our world where you know,
rather than being so celebrated for other things that seem like that are accomplishments, but really pale in comparison to like supporting another human in such a deep place of challenge. Like I really hope that that trauma therapists and folks who are focused on humane work get uplifted collectively, get like just appreciation and seen in that to the degree they're comfortable with, right?
They're so important.
It is.
Yeah, this is unfortunately uh a field that is filled with so much pain. The pain that's there is so deep and so heavy. So any pocket of joy or hope, it just oh it just is magnified tenfold. It's nice to see the joy, it's nice to see the hope, it's nice to see the connection uh when you spend all day in in the trenches.
Yeah. So two things to close. One, let's just say, I don't know, some generous celebrities, Lady Gaga or Taylor Swift or someone just kicked down a few a few million, a few hundred million. Maybe they maybe they're doing so well, they just gave y'all a billion dollars.
No, you go.
I love it. I'm just gonna speak it, put it out there. Yeah, I like that.
You do that.
So if and when that happens, what does that look like for the organization? Like what how does that help in terms of scale and support? Where does that, what does that money turn into if it goes through Beauty Afterwards?
That's a really good thank you for asking that question. That's that's our biggest thing, is what we one of the largest things that we do, besides all of the just supporting people and with our our love and our kindness and our guidance, is we do have a financial aid program. So if someone has out-of-pocket costs for their ongoing therapy, and most people do, that they really cannot afford. And a lot of folks can't, they won't go. They just why start something they can't maintain. And anyway, so we help fund at least a portion. Right now, that's all we can do, is a portion of their ongoing therapy. And we do it for four-month increments. For four months, we can help you out with X amount. And we always funded at least 10% of everyone who applies. But we'd like to, I mean, there have been times where you know, we can sometimes we can fund 30 or 40 percent, which is not it, you know, again, it's not what we'd like, but it it's still better than what was happening before. And to the best of our knowledge, we're the only organization in the US that's doing something like that. So we're supporting an entire nation of need in need. So, you know, yes, we do pat ourselves for that. At least we're doing that. We're we're doing what we can. That, but what that would look like is that we would probably be able to fund almost everyone, at least a portion of their therapy ongoing, and it would probably be able to go for more than four months because uh our goal, our dream would be able to help someone stay in therapy for a minimum of a year and know that for one year they're going to be able to get the care they need. Because the worst case scenario is a year from now, they've got the basics. They understand how to ground, how to self-soothe, how to identify their symptoms, how to interrupt intrusive thoughts. They've got the basics. And if it had to end, they'd be okay until they can find whatever it is they need to move to the next level. Maybe that's Medicaid, Medicare, disability, whatever it is that they need. Yeah, a job, whatever they need. That's what it would do, is it it would enable people to stay in therapy for a year, and we would be able to help so many more of them. And a year is, I mean, a year is a good, it's a good foundation. It's not gonna do a whole lot more, but it's a good foundation, and that would keep people alive and give them the hope to continue later.
Yes. I don't know what your thoughts are there, but I was just gonna say real quick also, the uh pre-pandemic, we also were able to occasionally try to help people get inpatient care as well, cute care, which obviously we have we're running low on options for where people can go, but still people occasionally still need to cute care at different places, and that was an option. Um, post-pandemic, uh funding in general got tougher, and of course, now the world is extra, extra struggling, struggling. It has made it all these things much harder. But then the last thing I would just say is also in terms of money would be to better support our therapy box program as well. So that's the other arm for folks who don't have a clinician. Maybe there's just genuinely nobody in their area for a couple hours to see, there's no one to see, or we have run out of funding. How can we support those clients for at least a couple of years with workbooks and tools and grounding items and comfort items? We work very closely with them to make sure the tools, the books, the workbooks are appropriate for them and going to be helpful and supportive. But also that if in a couple years they're in a better, stronger spot, they've got one for that too, even if they don't use that one right away. And we would be able to fill out those boxes a little bit more robustly and ship them. Shipping is very expensive. So if we're just talking dollars and cents here, that would make that program a lot more lucrative too. Because even if we had bajillions of dollars, not everybody has a clinician. And there might genuinely be no one near them to see, even if we could give them a ton of money to make it happen. So being able to fill up that program a lot further would be great as well.
Yes. So if people want to connect with you, it's beautyafterburses.org. Is there any and sending them to social media? I think all the links are on the website there.
Yep, yep.
Yeah.
We kept it simple. BeautyAfterBruises at Gmail, beautyafterburses.org, beauty afterburzes on Facebook and Instagram. If you can't find it, it's you just didn't look.
And you help with complex trauma and dissociation. It's not just interpersonal violence or things
like that. Yeah. And you help all genders and absolutely. We don't even ask that question. Anyone who who reaches out. Yeah. So I'll close with what brings each of you joy.
At this exact moment, this beautiful little kitty who has decided to jump up and uh make himself a home. He I feel like he is a great uh, like many animals, uh, stress sensor. He's like, I I I'm scanning the room, I'm feeling some stress over here. I'll go walk and sit and purr on your lap and getting that nice home. So he's helping. Uh, I know Ann mentioned games earlier. That they're silly, they're good, good for a laugh. Um, but like I also said too, I'm pretty good at seeking things out and making sure I restore. So I am looking for good stories and good positive change, looking for the positive legislation changes or the these initiatives that are going to combat this, that, or the next thing that's really difficult. I find a lot of joy from feeling like we are making movement and not just uh watching things unravel. I don't know, that gives me some joy, but then tuning off and finding a true comedy or something so zaby and goofy and silly that is on a whole other chapter, unserious, deeply unserious, and just getting some laughs there.
Yeah, there was a period of time where I would only watch comedy. I was like, comedy or like something about nature. Those are my thing else is out, yeah.
Yes, yes, and the same. I'm anything that makes me laugh or smile, and that that comes in so many forms. And for me, I do have a granddaughter who cracks me up. The stuff that comes out of her mouth is just it, and I always I can't wait to ever share it with Lexi. You are not gonna believe what she said today, and it it's just hilarious. And I'll give you one example because I think we can all relate. She was on the floor rolling around, and I'm trying to get her on the bus, and she's like doing one of these, like reaching up and what are you doing? What we need to get you up, what is keeping you down there? And she says, Gravity Graham, it's holding me down. Like, this is a seven-year-old. Like, okay, then gravity's holding you down. Truth, yeah, exactly. It sure is, girl. Yeah, exactly. It is, I can't argue, but we have to go to school.
Kids are great for truth, right? Every once in a while, they're just like, This is what it is. You're like, that is what it is, baby.
It's profound, actually.
Yeah, I kept thinking about it. I'm still thinking about it a year later.
Right.
That was important. But yes, grandkids will do it for you. And little kids will do it.
Oh, yeah, yeah. I know. I've got my soon-to-be three-year-old running around here. Oh, I see. She drops some wisdom. Yeah, she'll be at the ISS TD conference in Portland. Are you all gonna be there?
Absolutely. I intention, yes. We intended to go to the Healing Together conference, and the influenza and COVID had a different for us. So we get to go. So fingers crossed, we make it to Portland.
The intention is there.
Definitely awesome. The room is booked, so let's hope right.
Hope it follows through for everyone's sake. Well, thank you so much for coming on the show and sharing your experiences and your work. I look forward to hopefully seeing you in Portland and again nature, and just so celebrate and appreciate all that you're doing. Like, if I could reach over and just like give a little pat on the back.
We so appreciate you. You're you're so special, and I so appreciate all that you do. The grace and kindness and sensitivity and just softness you bring with the field. It's very nice. I love it. It is true.
Okay, we wouldn't send yes.
Oh, thank you. So appreciate that. You made it to the end of the episode. Thanks for listening all the way through. Now that you've been listening for a while, I'd love to hear back from you. What's an idea or a story from this episode that sticks with you as we wrap up? Or what's one small thing you can do today to choose a step in the direction of healing or growth? Share your answers and what's been healing for you in the comments below on YouTube, on Instagram at how we can heal, or send me a message at info at how we can heal.com. Also check out howwecanheal.com for free resources, training, and the full transcript of each show. If you're listening and loving the show, please leave us a review on Apple, Spotify, Audible, or wherever you're listening right now. If you're watching on YouTube, click the buttons to like and subscribe, and keep sharing the show with anyone it could benefit. Before we wrap today, I want to be clear that this podcast isn't offering prescriptions, it's not advice, nor is it any kind of mental health treatment or diagnosis. Your decisions are in your hands, and I encourage you to consult with any healthcare professionals you may need to support your path. I'd like to thank Alex for taking care of the babe & the fur babies and give a big shout out to my brother Matt. He wrote this music and it makes my heart so happy to share it with you here.
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