In this episode of the How We Can Heal podcast, host Lisa Danylchuk interviews Britt Hartley, a secular spiritual director and author of 'No Nonsense Spirituality.' Britt shares her journey leaving Mormonism, explores the concept of spirituality without dogma, and emphasizes the importance of connection, presence, and personal rituals in daily life. They discuss how spiritual practices can be integrated into everyday activities, creating meaning and intentional living. Listeners are invited to explore personalized spiritual paths and the balance between masculine and feminine energies in healing and spirituality.
00:55 Meet Britt Hartley: Exploring Secular Spirituality
03:45 Understanding Religious Trauma and Secular Tools
06:00 Navigating Spiritual Practices in Daily Life
18:10 The Balance Between Order and Chaos
26:12 Feminism and Spirituality: A Balanced Approach
29:51 Yoga for Trauma: Online Training Program
31:14 The Role of Connection in Spirituality
32:56 Creating Your Own Community
34:21 Embracing Vulnerability and Honesty
39:57 Integrating Spirituality into Daily Life
44:51 Finding Magic in Everyday Moments
54:52 Awakening to the Present
58:06 Connecting with Britt and Her Work
59:54 Final Thoughts and Gratitude
Britt has a masters degree in theology with a focus in the Future of American Religion and is the Author of No Nonsense Spirituality She was raised Mormon and is a published author in Mormon Philosophy. She has studied Christianity, Buddhism, Sufism, Mysticism, Secular Spirituality, cults, and Interfaith studies. Her current focus is on Secular spirituality, specifically for those with religious trauma.
Learn more at: https://nononsensespirituality.com/
Full Transcript
Intro:
Welcome back to season four of the How We Can Heal Podcast. My name is Lisa Danylchuk , and I'm a psychotherapist specializing in trauma treatment. I created this podcast because I'm surrounded by people who have dedicated their lives to navigating healing. There is so much wisdom in each guest this season, and my hope is that this show makes their important ideas and experiences available to you in a way that uplifts and inspires you.
These guests and I have committed our lives to fostering health and joy in the world, even as we work through the impacts of trauma and face deep challenges. Let's dive into season four and let's keep talking about how we can heal.
Interview:
Welcome back to the How We Can Heal Podcast. Today our guest is Britt Hartley. Britt has a master's degree in Theology with a focus in the future of American religion and is the author of No Nonsense Spirituality. She was raised Mormon and is a published author in Mormon philosophy. She has also studied Christianity, Buddhism, Sufism Mysticism, secular Spirituality Cult, and Interfaith Studies.
Her current focus is on secular spirituality, specifically for those with religious trauma. Britt and I connected when Christine Forner, who's been on the show in season one to share about her work in dissociation and mindfulness. Really popular episode. If you haven't listened to it, go back and check it out.
Christine sent me a clip from TikTok. In it, Britt displayed a parent paying attention to the wants and needs of their child as they set up a birthday party that made the child feel seen and celebrated. Britt's commentary was that spirituality happens in moments like this when we're present, attentive and connected to one another.
Not just while we're meditating on a mountaintop or reading a spiritual text, maybe it's still the oxytocin high from becoming a mom myself last year. But I so appreciated this message. So I read up on Britt's work and invited her onto the show. There are moments from this conversation that have stuck with me in a daily, uplifting way, and I hope you'll feel the same.
Let me know once you've listened, what resonates for you. And for now, let's welcome Britt to the show.
I'm actually really excited to talk to you because my friend Christine sent me a video that you recorded, you know, questioning what we think of as spiritual. And it was a mother who was listening throughout the year to what their kid wanted and giving them all those things at their birthday party, if I'm remembering correctly.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And I recently became a mom myself, my daughter's one. You can see toys in the background probably. Mm-hmm. And I was just like, yes. Yes. And so it was really just that I went to your website, I reached out to you and I was like, let's talk. So I have some questions for you, but I'm really open to this conversation just going anywhere.
Um, and I'm curious to learn, I wanna talk more about what No, no Nonsense Spirituality. That's the name of your book, right? Mm-hmm. I wanna know more about what that means to you, but first I'm just curious about you and your path in spirituality. What does that look like for you?
Yeah, that's, that's a big question.
So my. I have a degree in theology and I work now as an atheist spiritual director. And why I do that is kind of wrapped up with my story, which is common for most people. And, and what they do is it's, it's wrapped up into your story. So for me, I, I come from religion and had kind of a rough time as I, as I was deconstructing from religion and then found that spirituality.
Specifically for me, secular spirituality without claims on dogma or faith, uh, really helped me out of some really dark places and realizing that spirituality could be kind of separated from the religion that I was brought up in, and that there were tools in spirituality that are really good for people, really good for mental wellbeing and relational wellbeing and meaning and purpose and awe and transcendence and contemplation.
These things are good for us. We have science that shows that these things are good for us, but for me, coming from religious trauma, I couldn't get access to these tools if they had faith claims or truth claims wrapped around it. Even in new age spirituality, you know, to get into something like astrology.
Um. You still have to kind of accept some truth claims that they're claiming about planets in the universe. And that was very hard for me coming from religion. And so spirituality for me just means connection. Connection to deepest self and connection outside of yourself. For many people, that includes a higher power For me, that doesn't include a higher power.
At least a supernatural kind of higher power for me. That connection outside of myself is the human story and life on earth and story of this planet. So it's kind of a long way of, for, for me to say spirituality's connection, spirituality is good for us. And now the work that I do is how can I get these tools for people who are skeptical, who are not religious, who are agnostic, who are atheists, who have religious trauma, who don't really know, you know, are overwhelmed with the amount of spiritual paths that are available.
Um, how can I get these tools to the people who are most in need of it, but are so skeptical or burned by either religion or various, you know, truth claims that they're not getting access to these tools. So that's a little bit about what I do today.
It's so important. Right. And you mentioned having trauma that's related to religion and that's.
Unfortunately quite common. Uh, I'm a trauma therapist myself and I work with people who have a hard time with precisely what you're describing, which is teasing out, okay, wait, but I actually really enjoyed this community aspect of it. Or, I really enjoyed the rituals, you know, of the coming of age rituals or, um, certain aspects of faith or belief.
But once they're connected to something that's also caused harm, it can be so challenging to tease that out and to find something. I love the phrase you're using truth claims to find something that feels true internally and if or when we're leaning into something that we don't know for sure. We're actively calling it faith.
Right? We're actively, actively saying we don't know this for sure, but I'm choosing to believe it and I think it's such a. Big part of healing and empowerment and trauma recovery when we're choosing, you know, and we're making a conscious choice, rather than just going along or being told, or like, I think what you described, things get really muddled.
Yeah. I think there's an added element there too, when you're coming from religion, is that I, I come from a Mormon background, which means not only was that, you know, dictated to me my life, my meaning, my purpose, what I do with my time, my morality. I mean, literally there was not a, a piece of my life that was not touched by Mormon kind of truth claims.
And, and, uh. That foundation. And so you have to kind of reconstruct, but not only that, you know, you do have feelings associated with that religion. And so it's not just a sense of, oh, I'm not gonna trust, you know, prophets and people outside of me. I'm just gonna listen to my inner voice. For people coming from religion e especially if you're a woman who is raised in a patriarchal religion, your inner voice was turned off a long time ago.
Yeah. By the age of five. Um, you are already trying to fit yourself in a box and you already know what emotions you can show out loud, what things you can say out loud and what, what ones you can't. And so. Really that place that you're talking about, you get stuck on both ways because not only do you have to rebuild your life mm-hmm.
But all the tools that could help you, like you said, are kind of poisoned because they're attached to religious trauma or shame or whatever it is. So all the tools that could help you have poison on them, and you can't trust yourself because I've had feelings before that. The Book of Mormon was true. So how can I even trust my own intuition when I've essentially been bamboozled at some level or I have had feelings that I now can't trust because they were attached to historical truth claims that I actually know.
Like I'm, I'm, I was a history teacher. I've read the history of this. I know what happened and my feelings were not in accordance of what to what actually happened in history when it comes to this particular religion. And so that's the place where I really see few people get stuck is, is I can't move forward.
I can't reconstruct 'cause I'm skeptical to all of this. I don't even know who I am or this concept of an inner, inner voice. I, I've been misled before, so I don't even know to start with that. I don't know who I am. I don't know what to believe. I don't know if there's any morality. I don't know if there's any truth.
I don't know if there's. Any, God, I don't know if there's any life after this. I don't know if there's any meaning to any of this. I'm just sitting here suffering with no tools. That's the place that I really think spirituality can help.
Hmm. Mm-hmm. I have so many thoughts, and one of them you're saying, okay, I can't trust, maybe the religion I've leaned into, I can't trust myself because so many of those, you know, toxic traits or beliefs have been internalized, or I used to believe this, so how could I, how could I know?
Now I believe this, how do I know that's true? Yes. There's a piece in what you're talking about in addition to maybe not trusting a, a religious group or doctrine, not feeling like I can connect to my intuition to lead me. There's also a big attachment piece here. Mm-hmm. Right? Because you're talking about other people teaching these things and people in your life, and when you speak to Mormonism, I think of people who have left.
Felt so incredibly alone or isolated or excluded, um, actively excluded. And this isn't unique to Mormonism, but I'm just thinking of some personal stories of people I know who shared that. And it's so interesting 'cause what I gather from your work is that it's very humanitarian. It's very much about connecting to yourself, connecting to people around you.
Can you just define no, no nonsense spirituality for folks who are listening. We're hearing it for the first time. What do you mean by that? Sure. So
under this umbrella of spirituality are a lot of good things. Some things I've mentioned, you mentioned rituals. We have science that shows us that rituals help to process emotions.
They increase pleasure, they decrease pain. Pain. They mark our values. It's not just a woo thing, right? Uh, same thing with awe. We can, we can actually Brittng people into an awe experience like looking at the Grand Canyon or looking at the stars, and we can actually watch that. Their behavior changes. They become more kind.
They let go of grudges. They become more focused on what they want their life to be about. Contemplation practices. We have science. We can plug up someone's brain who has been a long-term meditator and say their brain is less neurotic. It's less self-obsessed, it's more happy. Um, certain aspects of the brain, you know, it's a younger brain, it's a healthier brain.
So there's all these things under the umbrella of spirituality that. That kind of lies at the root of religion that are good for us, uh, experiences of, of oneness that you can, that you can have that we've called God or called, you know, called these spiritual words. And so what I wanna do with no nonsense spirituality is what are all of these tools that we have, science that shows is good for wellbeing, even to the point that we can look at some data and say that even for Covid, there's evidence that shows that religious people fared better during covid than non-religious people.
And that may just be reducible to religious peoples often have, you know, a more tight-knit community and communities lend to longevity and meaning and happiness and all these good things. But there's. There are things under this umbrella of spirituality that are good for us. And so the no nonsense part is what is this tool?
How can I access it in a way that's authentic to me? And how can I do it in a way that doesn't require this middleman that I have to believe in something? Because that's what we usually do, is the ritual is like, you know, rituals are good for us. Well, how do you get rituals and rites of passage in your life?
Oh, I'm Jewish and we have bar mitzvahs when they turn this age and we sing these songs and we do these things and it's good for kids and we have science that shows that it's good for kids. So for me now, who is outside of a religious community and who ha you know, is skeptical, has religious trauma. You know, really into philosophy, things like that.
How can I get these spiritual tools that make my life better, objectively better and more worth living without any nonsense, without believing things that are unbelievable, without having to, um, claim things about the universe that we just don't know? How can I just get straight to the tool without playing any supernatural games at all?
Mm-hmm. Yeah. So it's more, it sounds to me just more grounded, even like more on the earth, physically, right? Yes. 'cause Well, we don't know, even when you Yes. Speak about astrology. Well, you're asking me to believe certain things and, you know, there isn't a consensus or science necessarily to support it. I just keep thinking about this class I took at UCLA, this was over 20 years ago.
It was called the History of Religion. And we, you know, I think six or eight of the world's most common religions. There was this wheel, I have to give a shout out to Professor Barce because he, he, I believe, created the wheel in the lectures and it was elements of religion, things that religions have in common.
And it was precisely what you're describing from a little bit of a different angle. One of the elements wasn't awe, the elements were like ritual and community. Mm-hmm. And unexplainable. And, um, it, it was just pointing out that look at all these different things, what they have in common, look how they're helping meet these human needs.
And that's always been. So, uh, I, I've talked about that class and thought about that class probably more than any other since, as I've traveled and talked to people and, you know, worked in a therapeutic setting. There's so many of these needs that we have that I think are hard to, harder to get these days in a more secular setting.
Right? Yes. Thinking of. A typical American rites of passage, I think, of Sweet 16. Like w what? What is that? It's a movie that probably most people haven't seen anymore. And when you have a Sweet 16 party, what do you do? I don't, it depends, right? Mm-hmm. It's not quinceanera, it's not like a Bar mitzvah, it's, or a bat mitzvah.
It's. It's different. And so it does feel to me so important along with things like awe or connection or gratitude or different things that that shift our state. It feels so important that we identify these things that our needs that are good for us and carry them forward. So can you talk about some of the tools that you've thought about, written about, shared about in No Nonsense Spirituality.
Sure. And yeah, I'm, I'm really on board with, you know, that, that class and, and learning about religious from the perspective of human needs and that we have these human needs, we have these things that are, that tend to be good for us. And so we develop these religions and, and this has kind of been our way to get these tools is we have a community and we have collective myths and some kind of collective religion that is the vessel for all of these tools that are good for us.
And like you're saying, the problem today isn't just with, you know, ex Mormons who are trying to figure out their life. This is a really big meaning crisis that we're, that happening as people are leaving organized religion for totally valid reasons, for reasons that I support and I see. But we're not doing the work of replacing, oh, they've actually left a lot of things behind that were good for us that we haven't yet.
Developed in secular society and maybe even it's gonna be a hard thing to do. So without collective myths, um, kind of driving that engine, which means that individual people then need tools for life. And I think if there is one lie of atheism, it would be that if you just leave religion, you know, you'll just know how to live your life.
Like, you'll know how to do your relationships and you'll find a meaningful job and you'll kind of just, you'll figure it out. Like everything. Just leave religion and everything's gonna be fine. And I think the reality is in between there, I don't, I don't think we're as. Born damned like the Christians tell us.
But I also don't think that we're, that if you just leave religion, you're just gonna know kind of the science of happiness and it's just gonna, you're just gonna stumble upon it, right? Mm-hmm. So we need tools to help us. So if I'm looking at the chapter headings of my book, each chapter is dedicated to one of these tools that we see across religions that we see as a human need.
What's the science behind it? What's going on at the root level? And then at the end of each chapter is some questions to ask yourself so that you can find a way to kind of gather this tool in a way that's authentic to you. So if I'm looking at the chapter headings, it would be, you know, what is secular spirituality, order and chaos?
All of our religions have stories. Um, most of our creation myths, for example, and, and you'll know this from, from your class too, I'm sure this was a part of it, but. Most religions have some kind of creation story that talks about order and chaos. We see this in almost every kind of mythology, and there's something here at the root that says, when we're in too much order, it's not good for us.
We're suffocated. It's a box. But when we're into much chaos, we're paralyzed. We can't make a decision. It's too chaotic. And so the spiritual tools that you need differ based on where you are on that spectrum and some kind of balance in between order and chaos, where you have some structure, but you have re room to grow.
Seems to be where we thrive the best. So where are you on that spectrum? Rituals and calendars, which we've talked about. Awe and contemplation. Uh, awakening the feminine, which is just adding, you know, a feminine voice, which. Which, uh, Brittngs in a lot more embodied spirituality than the masculine voice, historically, meaning and purpose, secular morality, intuition in the occult, the new age spirituality, even though there's some red flags to be aware of these, this area has a lot of tools for intuition that are actually good.
And we don't have to throw the whole thing away as woo. There are some tools here, but we just need to navigate it a little bit better. Or else we end up just creating new religions, um, mysticism and wisdom traditions, community and love, sacred story, you know, what are the stories that really drive you and human flourishing?
And so I go through each chapter and, and it was part of my own process as I was reconstructing my life. Of, of what are these, what is the. What is the bedrock of these tools? What's actually going on here? How are the different religions doing it? And how can I do it in a way that really reflects my life?
And that's when I really went from a place where I was just in the void because everything was attached to religion and belief in God. And now I had nothing to a, a really intentional and thriving life because I've rebuilt it in a way that really reflects how I enjoy spending my time at the level of experience and my own values and my family and my unique situation.
And so it's, it's not a 12 step program as far as if you do these, it's not a new religion that I'm giving people saying, you know, just follow this path and you'll be fine. It's actually, this is what's going on at the root level. Here's some options for you. Pick these tools for you know, where you need them, and apply them in a way that works for your own life.
I love that you started this explanation by talking about rigidity. Rigidity, well, I'm gonna use the word rigidity, but order and chaos. Um, it's common in, in psychology to think of it in terms of rigidity and chaos. And there's, you know, other words in the yoga world, it's stra and suka. Right? But it is a theme.
Yes. Also, what you're describing reflects that same, uh, those, those same polarities in terms of being a part of a religion that's very structured, that's very, uh, rigid. Like, you can't do this, you can't do that. You need to think this way. You need to be, behave that way into this void of something that I would think would feel more chaotic of.
Like, well, what's true then? And where am I? And what's, who can I trust and how do I trust myself into this? Organized, I think you just read 12 chapters right there, like structure, and you're going down to the root, finding the seed of each thing, and even for yourself or for any of us as individuals. It might work to meditate for 30 minutes every morning at one point in our life and not in another.
So rather than this prescriptive do this to get there, it's an ongoing conversation of, okay, these are important things. Love and connection is really important. Community is important. Rituals important. You know, reflecting on what you believe is important, how do we fit that in, in an ongoing way? So I love that you have, I always, whenever I write a book, there's always reflection questions at the end of every chapter.
Mm-hmm. So I love that you have that so that folks can go through and go, oh, okay. That's what's going on here. That's what's underneath some of this feeling of rigidity or this feeling of chaos or this, this need that I have, and here's some options to get me thinking of what's best for me in my life right now.
Mm-hmm.
And how I can move forward with that.
Yeah, we were, and we were talking about, you know, being mothers. And so much of the noise and spirituality still comes from kind of this action oriented, more masculine voice, which is, you know, get up at 5:00 AM and do your ice bath and do your two hour meditation, and then go ground yourself at nature.
And then when you meditate, it needs to, you know, you need to be in a full lotus position. Your needs to be on the floor, you need to have a man bun and it needs to look like this, and you need to be wearing these kinds of clothes. And it's then you need to go to Costa Rica and you need to try these drugs.
And it's just this list of very action oriented things. And so in Mormonism, my life was very dictated by, you know, male voices to finding what spirituality is, and even outside of religion, when I was in this space trying to. Trying to figure things out, trying to make sense of spirituality. It was still very dictated by that, uh, masculine action oriented side of things, which is not inherently wrong or bad, you know, it's, it's not that kind of thing.
It's more of I'm the mother of four children. Like, what do you mean? Do a long meditation, like nine times out of 10. When I ask a woman, especially a woman coming from, from a patriarchal religion, if she has a spiritual practice, nine times outta 10, she'll say, I try to meditate. It's so hard, my mom brain, like I'm just thinking about the kids and I'm listening to them, and I just can't, I, I, I literally just can't do it.
It just doesn't fit my life. So I'm not a spiritual person. Nine times out of 10, that is what they say. I, I wish I had a more spiritual life. I wish I had more time to meditate, but I just don't. And, and this is where kind of breaking open the definition of spirituality to just connection instead of just this list that may or it may fit your life.
It really may not. And if it doesn't, then what does, then, what does fit your life? For me, that's really paying attention to my hands when I'm washing the dishes and just getting really into my body. And I can have a completely meditative, connective experience just while doing the dishes. For me, it's taking one breath before my kids off the get off the bus to just recenter myself so that I can just take in the emotional onslaught that I'm about to get for my children and be present for that.
I don't do. Even as a spiritual director, like spirituality is my job. I don't do very often long form meditation. It doesn't fit my life, but I do walk my dog and listen to a podcast and I really love that. It's really good for me, really connective, really enjoy that. I do take one breath before my kids get off the bus.
I do. Um, I'm, I'm present when I'm doing the dishes. I'm present when I'm talking with my partner. I'm present when I'm looking at my child. And so for me, this shift away from this action oriented, this is how you do spirituality and actually getting into your body to say, how do I feel connected? Oh, it's with conversation and it's with my girlfriends and it's with walks and podcasts and it's with, um.
You know, even just housekeeping in my house so that I can be at peace in my own house. All of that is spiritual to me, even though kind of no man ever told me that that was spiritual, and that has been just a huge shift for me.
Yeah, there's, do you feel that there's an undercurrent of feminism to your work?
Would you call it that?
Yeah, I would call it that. But I, I am wary of the kind of feminism that just, that only says, you know, fuck the patriarchy. I'm wary of the kind of feminism that turns into a religion. I'm wary also as a mother of sons of the kind of feminism that essentially demands that when a boy or man walks into a room, they have to put their head down and apologize for being boys and for being men.
I think that's the kind of shaming that, um, is reactionary to perhaps how we felt for many generations walking into rooms that I don't want for my sons. I don't want my sons ha to have to walk around and, and apologize for, um. For being born boys. And there's, there, there can be today, maybe a lack of boy heroes with all of our, our empowered princesses, which is great for my daughters, but there's not enough maybe modeling of what healthy masculinity looks like for my sons.
Hmm. So I, I would call my work, I, I dedicated a whole chapter of, of my book to awakening the feminine. But this is an invitation to all. I really go back to the idea that this is not about, uh, you know, when I talk about the masculine or the feminine, I'm not talking about the journey of the penis or the journey of the vagina.
I'm really talking about the traits that we've called masculine, which tend to be this more action oriented side of us and the traits that we've called feminine, the, the intuitive and the creative and the relational. I do call my work feminist, but I do it in a way that, that doesn't shame men for being men, but hopefully invites them into this space that we get at the end of the heroine's journey, which is different than the hero's journey.
The end of the heroine's journey is this balanced place between our masculine and our feminine, and that's an invitation to everyone. So I wanna do that kind of feminism, like, Hey, we're missing a voice here. We have this male loneliness e epidemic. Um, we have this disconnection to nature and relationality and community and intuition that we've lost with part, you know, patriarchal religion.
I wanna Brittng that back, but not in a way that just shames men for being men in a way that. It actually helps everyone, including men. That's the kind of feminism that I wanna be a part of.
Something that's collectively healing, right? That's yes. Mm-hmm. Sort of tossing pain or trauma around and, you know, yeah.
Oppress.
Or also
like you, we get a lot of, uh, conversations about what toxic masculinity looks like without being fair and talking about that. There is toxic femininity too. And if we can't talk about the shadow side of feminism, if we can't talk about that piece, then we're just kind of being reactionary and just going from toxic masculine to toxic fem be, and, and I think that there, there needs to be a lot more invitation in the space of let's heal together rather than.
And, and invitation to men who complain about things like loneliness and suicidality. Uh, adding feminine voices helps them too. Patriarchy hurts them too. Yeah. And so that kind of invitational space where we can, where we can heal together by adding feminine voices, that's the femininity that, or the, you know, the, the feminism that I wanna most be a part of.
'cause I'm a mother to not just daughters, but to sons too.
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Mention the podcast in your application for a special bonus. One more time. Nice and slow. The website is how we can heal.com/the letter Y, the number four and the letter T. Looking forward to seeing you there. I wanna Brittng us back to this element of connection and I mentioned earlier it sounds like your work's very humanitarian.
There's this attachment piece when you're separated from a religion when you're finding new community. Um, can you talk about how connection plays a role in no-nonsense spirituality?
So it, it's certainly a, a foundational piece. Both that connection to self and connection outside of self was just, is just really the, the heartbeat of spirituality and we see that, um, in spiritual art all the time.
Is, is this. Image of labyrinths or something like it where you're always going deeper in and you're always connecting deeper outside. And you know, we see this just over and over as as the process that we're a part of. Can I more deeply understand myself because we are. We are mysterious even to ourselves.
There's much more in our subconscious going on than we could ever probably fully understand. There's a whole universe inside to explore and there's a whole universe outside to explore. And it's that connection piece that really gives us life. Anything out in nature that isn't connected just dies. I mean, we're just too relational to thrive without connection.
And so the piece that becomes tricky is if that connection wasn't given to you on a platter, which is what happens in Mormonism. You can move anywhere in the world and you show up with your Mor at your Mormon ward and there's your community, there's your friends. That's what you're doing really almost every day of the week with, with these people.
So if that's not. Gonna be a fit for you? Is that kind of, you know, silver platter kind of community. Then essentially it's, it's up to you to create that for you and, and if you have a partner or if you have children to create that. And one of the benefits of going through kind of a rock bottom place like I went through is you get a little bit more bravery into intentionally creating that.
So when I was leaving Mormonism, you know, it was, it was, I was losing all my friends and all my family. You get sort of shunned and, and socially blacklisted in that way. It was very isolating and, and that piece is hard. I'm not gonna downplay it, but the beauty of that piece is if you feel like you're dying or you feel like this is rock bottom, it can give you a little bit of bravery that what is someone gonna say to me that is worse than where I am right now?
What is someone gonna do to me that is worse than the place that the depressive existentially depressed place that I am right now? So I'm gonna start taking some risks. I've already, my identity's already died, essentially. Um, and so with that comes a lot of freedom and a lot of bravery to take risks that I never would have as a Mormon woman, um, where everything is just more scripted and more masked.
So I just started being more honest and saying the weird thing out loud and saying the vulnerable thing out loud and saying things that are unpopular. So for example, in Exm Mormonism, it's very popular to just talk about how stupid Mormons are, how stupid Mormonism is, and how we're so much better. And I started saying, you know what?
There's sometimes in Exm Mormonism that, like you said, this sometimes feels like a community that's not generative. We're just sitting here talking about how we're better than everyone else. And that's kind of how we acted when we were Mormons too. And, um, patterns maybe, you know, and maybe, um. I'm actually in some ways not thriving out here.
There are some times where I really miss my friends and family. There's some times where I really miss feeling like I knew what was going on. There was some times I missed the safety of having these rituals and feeling like, oh, when this happens I can do this, and when this happens, I can pray. When this happens, I can fast.
I understand that Those things, you know. That I believe now aren't capital R real, but those felt really nice to have. And now I don't have any of those things, so I just started to speak more honestly about my experience of being human. And really that is the key piece as, as you already know of, of really building.
I. Relationships and community is, I started to find the people who also felt that way or wanted to meet me in that place because they've met themselves in that place. And so my relationships now are so they're, they're probably fewer, but they're so much deeper and they're so much richer and they're so much more beautiful than the relationships that I had when I was just given a community.
Um, and so this can be one of the benefits of, of facing some of these hard places is that it gives you the bravery to say, I'm gonna say the weird, vulnerable thing out loud. And I may just get like eye rolls. And sometimes I still do and I may get some hate mail on TikTok, and I still do, but I also find people who really wanna talk about that thing with me too.
And I find my people and I create some, some friends in that I now call family around me and I get involved with. My son's karate and I get involved with my daughter's girl scouts or whatever it is, and it's a little bit more makeshift of a community, but it's a community that reflects my family. And that has been a really beautiful benefit of, of this side of things that I didn't know was possible when I was leaving my religious community and had no one and had nothing.
Well, when there's more vulnerability that you share, there's more potential for depth. Yes. Because you could been in a community where there's, you know, expectations or social morays or assumptions, and so you just behave within that. And maybe other people in there had the same thoughts, feelings, fears you did, but no one ever said it, so you never get to connect, right?
Mm-hmm. So again, it comes back to that opportunity for, and you've said this word a few times, authentic connection, right? Like what's real? What's real with a capital R, but what's also just real for me today, right here, right now, how am I feeling? What am I thinking? What's on my mind? Can I share that? Can I be with someone else in that, even just for the moment?
Yeah. And, and that I didn't know how good that could get when all of my relationships before were more masked. So I could have said out loud in a Mormon ward, Hey, I'm starting to really have doubts about this, and I don't believe this at all. And I really think that half the people in that room also feel that.
But nobody can say that out loud. I mean, it's such, it's such a social taboo. It would be like walking into the room naked and, and so. Sometimes having something like depression or having, or feeling alone or feeling isolated, these can be catalysts for having the kind of bravery to have the level of vulnerability that invites people to that place.
And I never knew that there would be people in my life that I could really say anything to, like really deep shadow things that I could say out loud and be seen and loved in that space. Um, it's really like the, the, the light at the end of the tunnel when you're talking about feeling alone or feeling existentially depressed, is that if it can become a catalyst for those kinds of relationships, um, it'll be so worth the journey.
It's gold, right? And I think that's, it really is, yeah. Such a deep human need to feel seen, to feel connected. Uh, there's a wincott quote I'm trying to remember. Um. It's a joy to be hidden and a disaster to never be found. Mm. Right? Mm. Mm-hmm. Like, oh, I'm so comfy, cozy here. Not saying anything about this thing.
But once I do, oh, like the connection and the joy that comes with that. It's so much of what we're seeking. Right? There's one piece that you've described, especially for me as a mom, I get this, and I think for a lot of parents, um, or anyone who just has, uh, you know, isn't oriented to wake up at 5:00 AM take a two hour ice bath, do a 30 minute meditation, you know, you could for one point you could spend all day on your morning routine, right?
But also some people just aren't oriented or don't thrive in that structure. So can you talk about, um, cultivating presence? In the moment. Moment. And you mentioned the breath before the, uh, school bus. You mentioned the dishes. I'm wondering if you can talk a little bit more about how spirituality is, it becomes integrated into life so that instead of I do these things so that I'm okay later.
Right. There's a lot of that and I'm in the yoga world and in the therapy world, there's, especially in the yoga world, a lot of, I do this practice so that I can connect, so that I can take a deep breath and not yell at this person's, you know, and, and there's truth and beauty in that. But what about when a 60 minute yoga class, or, I mean, they used to be 90 minutes, but like even a 60 minute yoga class isn't accessible or, you know, the online class isn't cutting it or you don't have internet, whatever it is.
Can you talk about that? The practice not being separate from life?
Yes. Um, the hard thing about your question is. Often you do need something to help show you that that place exists. Hmm. And the problem then is we mistake that place. The place of beingness, the place of oneness, the place of awakeness, the place of connection, the place of inner peace.
We replace, um, how we got there with the actual place. And we start telling each other, oh, you should be doing these things. 'cause that's how I got to this place, right? Mm-hmm. I do yoga because this is how I feel this and I do, uh, psychedelics because this is how I feel that. And really, I think the best way to go about a spiritual path is to try these practices.
Try meditation, try yoga, try taking, try, try, nature, try. I. Mushrooms, if you're especially of the skeptical type type, I think the psychedelics can be really good for headspace people to just have an experience, um, try these things, but realize that they're just pointing to something. They're pointing to a place that you can get to at any time.
And so when we look at our, our brain chemistry and our natural biases, we have a negativity bias. Our brain naturally pays more attention to, to things that are going wrong. Um, we have, we get used to the level of dopamine that we're at. We, um. Are neurotic by nature, and we're self-obsessed, and we think about where we are in social hierarchies because that's just ki the kind of primate that we are.
And yet, if we can, there are ways to snap out of this, just stream of suffering that we get attached to in our thoughts. And it doesn't have to be meditation, but for many people, meditation is the thing that helped them to realize that their thoughts are causing a lot of suffering that is unnecessary.
So for example, when I take a shower, uh, if I'm not paying attention, I'm in that shower just completely in a stream of neurotic thoughts. Hmm. Uh, I'm mad at my husband. How did, how is it that he didn't notice that, that he needed to do this? And I'm feeling this and I. Men are so obtuse. Sometimes I just, oh, they're so frustrating sometimes.
And then I gotta sign up for my kid for this. And what if she doesn't get into, you know, what if she doesn't do well in school because I'm not giving her the right therapy for her, you know, for her knees. And I'm literally just in this stream of neuroticism of everything that is going wrong and everything is my fault, and blah, blah, blah.
And if I can just for a moment, pay attention to, oh, I'm in this stream of neurotic thoughts when actually I'm in a hot shower. There has been a hundred billion people on this planet. Very few of that percentage have ever had a hot shower in their life. This is king status, human pleasure behavior. I'm gonna sit down in this shower with my hands open and I'm going to try to explain what it feels like to have hot water fall on my hands.
I'm gonna try to explain this sensation as if to an alien. That's how, that's how into my body I'm gonna be. Mm-hmm. And I kid you not. I've had the most. Powerful experiences in the shower of intense pleasure and gratitude that I get to be in a hot shower and I'm in this body that feels these things and I can get so into it that it becomes almost an overwhelming, pleasurable experience.
Now, the difference between those two showers was just a shift in attention. Yeah. And how you get there is really unique to you. How you notice that and snap out of it essentially is, there are thousands of different options for how to do that. For Wim Hof, it's the cold thing. For some people it's drumming.
For some people it's yoga. For some people it's the breath. For some people it's psychedelics. For some people it's singing. For some people it's story, but what there, there is probably something that for you, helps you to break out of your natural neuroticism and wake up to the magic of what it is to be alive in a body and that it is.
Magical and it's mysterious, and you get to be in a child for a second. A child doesn't wake up thinking, what am I gonna do today that's ultimately meaningful? And how can I check these things off a list? They just follow their bodies. This what, what, what happens when I hold this up over my head and what happens when I make this sound?
And what happens when I do this and I'm gonna run, I'm just gonna step on the grass and I feel like running, so I'm just gonna go run. And we can actually get back to that kind of more childlike state of, of curiosity and wonder and joy and awe, even while taking a shower, really at any moment, even while doing the dishes, even while doing chores, even while driving in a car.
I had one meditation teacher, someone was explaining a sound bath and how amazing they felt during, no, it wasn't a sound bath, it was a one of those float tanks. They had an amazing experience in a float tank. And the meditation teacher in his wisdom said, oh, I've experienced that too. The last time I experienced that was when I was in traffic in LA and it was just kind of this like reminder from a really wise teacher that you actually don't have to go into that float tank and pay the a hundred dollars to feel what you felt.
I actually felt it in traffic and, and so really the spiritual to-do list are great to explore, to explore these things, to show you that there's a different way of being than your new usual neurotic biases. But how you get there is really gonna be unique to you. And to remember that it isn't about the practice, it's just about.
Paying attention in a, in the way that reminds you to pay attention. So for me, it's certain thoughts and quotes, um, that I have around me that I'm, I'm a really word-based person and words really are the thing that help me to get to that place. And so my rituals really center around words, conversations like this.
Really help me to feel alive in my body. Um, certain quotes and things that I can say that can snap me out of obsessing about something that doesn't matter and, and really give me this kind of perspective. And those are my cues. And that just helps me in my daily life, no matter what I'm doing, turn a completely suffering shower into an incredible shower experience.
And you can do that with anything in your life. So it isn't about the practice, it isn't about the to-do list. The to-do list of spirituality is just there to show you that other states of being exist and then you can, you can let them go or use these tools when and how you want to.
I love, it's like a shortcut to have a quote around that just reminds you, could you mind sharing any of the quotes that do that for you?
Sure. So
one of the things that's, that's a surefire way to get me to snap out of, you know, our natural brain tendency to, to focus on something, um, that doesn't really matter. And, and to get caught up in our, in identifying with that is. To is just this phrase, um, you're a meat soup flying through space.
And, and for me, like it's part of a longer, you know, uh, lecture that I can give myself, but that's a reminder that instantly gets me out of it. You are a. Suit flying through space with electricity in your brain. We are flying through space right now. Yeah. Like I am making mouth sounds at you and you are making mouth sounds at me.
And sometimes your mouth sounds, uh, make me buzz in my body and resonate and I feel like we're connecting and that's magic. Yes. And, and then I'm, as I'm flying through space and I'm listening to the radio, these sound waves make my body go like this. That's amazing. And when I taste this food, I start dancing in my chair.
That's, that's amazing. And, and there's this dog, it's this whole other creature and it's tail is wagging. And, and all of this is happening and it's, it's so mysterious and it's so profound. And what is consciousness and what is going on? And I have this whole universe inside of me. And I just, if I can just snap myself with this little phrase of.
You're a meat suit flying through space. Life is amazing and magical. If you can just pay attention to it, it really helps me to snap out of it. But if I were to make a religion out of it and say, oh, everybody needs to say this phrase to themself five times a day, right? It would essentially become something you check off of a list.
You know, just like we do in religion, some of these things we codify and we say, you have to do these things so much to the point that they lose their meaning in the first place and they just become, I said my prayers, I read my scriptures, check, check, check. And really all of these things are just there to point you to this different ground that you can stand on.
And the shortcut for you, what that is gonna be for you is gonna be totally unique to you.
Yes. I love that the meet suit flying through space, which reminds me of, um, someone who I've invited on the podcast, um, Tara Tini. She's an acupuncturist and yoga teacher and she loves the word meet suit. So shout out Tara, if it always makes me think of her when I hear that, what that does.
'cause I was thinking of these other mantras that are like very, okay, I'm orienting to the present and the practices we do to interrupt maybe a trigger or a traumatic memory to orient to the present. But I'm a meat suit. Flying through space connects to awe. Connects actually does connect you to something bigger.
It's a, it's a shift in perspective. Mm-hmm. Right. Like we are flying through space right now and that's
pretty
amazing.
That's crazy. It's crazy. We're, we're talking to each other from different parts of the world Yeah. Through technology that neither of us probably understand or could recreate. Yeah. I mean, so to me, like, you know, when a, when someone accuses atheism of, of just materialism and it's just cold and sad and it's like actually leaving religion helped me to wake up to the magic of reality.
The magic of what it is to be alive. And that was happening in my, in my body if I could just pay attention to it. Another one that I do is, is saying momentum mori, which is how I start my day. Which is starting my day, remembering that I'm gonna die. And that may sound morbid, but for me it just laser focuses.
What do I act? How do I want to experience this precious day? Um, sometimes if I'm especially grumpy and I wake up on the wrong side of the bed, I'll actually do kind of a guided meditation with myself where I'll lay down on my deathbed. And this is the last week. My body doesn't work anymore. My brain's not working anymore.
I've lost many people that I love this. This is, this is the last chapter here, and I really sink into it, and then I wake up. My 38-year-old body, and my youngest child is five years old still and still wears a diaper at night and crawls into my bed and lays on my chest. And you get to do those little diaper bum pats.
Yes. And something so simple is just your child coming into your room. Like, I'll just be, I'll just be crying, just, just filled with so much meaning in this moment. And so sometimes if I'm really disconnected or I'm feeling really, you know, feelings, I'm feeling feelings, I, I will literally lay on my deathbed so that I can wake up to how precious this moment is.
And, and so those are things that help me. But those are unique to me.
And those both to me. Sometimes I struggle with like, what does spiritual even mean? What, what are we even talking about here? How do we define that? But what I love in what you're saying is, I. Connecting to the magic of life, the things we don't understand, being in awe of them.
This is crazy that we're flying through. So it's amazing that we're flying through space, that there's energy moving in my body and I'm making mouth sounds and you understand what they mean. And I don't have to overthink that. Like it's just Yes. Mind boggling, right? Yes. And then to come back, because we can be in that problem space.
Our brains are oriented this way. We know, oh, okay, like my child fell asleep on me, but I really gotta get up and I gotta turn off the stove. And I go, oh, you know, and then just a shift in attention, a shift in awareness. Like maybe I do have to stand up, maybe she does wake up for a second, but then I get to sit back down and I get to do the little diaper pets and I just get yeah.
Be here. I think especially for me in parenting, uh, recognizing and being a trauma therapist and. Having heard so many stories of all the ways that life can be hard and horrific, those challenging moments when I can make that shift become so magical that I'll just be streaming tears and the mo, you know, I was grumpy a minute ago, and all of a sudden something shifts and you're like, I'm so grateful for this little being on my chest.
I'm so grateful for the quiet around us, the home that we're in, the hot shower, right? These things mm-hmm. That we can just become so immune to because they become part of our daily life. And so there's something in, this is such a spiritually loaded term, like this awakening, right? Mm-hmm. But it, but you're describing just a shift in everyday consciousness and how we're relating.
And perhaps it's the trip to Costa Rica or the Ayahuasca or, or the. You know, day long meditation, or the ongoing yoga practice or the prayer or the journaling or whatever, whatever gets us connected to that state, aware that we have choice. Like that's, that's the gold. And then from there we can use our precious life in a way that's deeply meaningful instead of more superficial going through the motions, doing what someone else said would be helpful.
Right. And there, there's just so much there. I think this is why. Um, so the cover of my book has an eye on it, and it goes to exactly what you were talking there, that, that these spiritual practices can, can show you these things. They can awaken you to this different kind of, uh, kind of being. It's not the thing itself.
The thing itself is just being awake, just being awake in your life as it is. And that was just a huge shift for me, um, that if someone were to look at my life, they wouldn't, they would just see a mom of four kids. Like they, they wouldn't see that I have a consistent meditation practice. They wouldn't see that I consistently go on retreat or that I consistently do ice baths.
They wouldn't see any of that. But internally, I'm awake. I'm awake in my life. And this is why the eye centers so much in our holy texts and in our, um, in our holy art. You'll see eyes just everywhere. Not only in in Eastern traditions, but in Western traditions too. Even angels in, in the Bible was just this thing that had eyes in all directions.
'cause it could just see, it could just be awake and. That is really what spirituality is to me. It's not the list of the things that we do to look spiritual or be spiritual or the thing that is pointing to spirituality. Those things can help when we just need to know that that place exists because we don't know that when we're stuck in our thoughts.
Um, but really what it is, is once we try some of those things and get to have some of those experiences, how can you snap out, snap into that place doing anything at any time? And that is really where the benefit of female mystics and feminine spirituality really shines because feminine spirituality has never really been about the list because.
Historically, women wake up caring for the people around them. They don't have, like, this is the schedule of the things that I do. Um, and so from female mystics, we get a lot more of this voice of embodied spirituality. Wake up in your relationships. You can, you don't have to sit under a boai tree and leave your family to become awakened.
You can actually wake up right here, right now. Hmm. And, and that is something that we get, especially from the feminine side, that really helped me with, with this side of spirituality.
Hmm. I love it so much.
So, is your book available yet? Yeah, it's available on Amazon. It's been out for three months now, so it has, um, some really good reviews on Amazon.
I, it's doing better than I, I mean, I really did this book for me, and if it just helped one other person, then that would be meaningful enough to me. But, um, I'm, I'm, the, the emails that I'm getting that it's, that it's helping people kind of find their own spiritual paths have just been so rewarding. And so, um, I'm, yeah, it's, it's available on Amazon also on my social media, which is no nonsense.
Spirituality everywhere. There's also an audio book available, Hey, I that, and I have coaches, I have courses and I have coaching and, um, hopefully moving to YouTube to be able to talk about some of these, some of these things, uh, coming in the fall. So that's where I'll be hanging out. Love it.
All right. I was just gonna ask how people can connect with you.
Is there a favorite platform for you?
Right now I spend most of my time on TikTok, but it's summer, so my four children are home. And so I, I don't, um, once in a while I'll, I'll get on t on TikTok and share something, but I'm, I'm currently not doing very much social media or, or coaching so that I can stay home with and spend time with my children.
Uh, but come the fall, TikTok and YouTube is where I hang out the most. Love it.
Well, thank you so much Britt for this conversation, for your work, for everything that went into writing your book. 'cause I know it's a lot, especially if you're parenting at the same time. And yeah, thanks for being here with us today.
Thanks so much.
Conversations like this are, are my church. And, um, I really resonated with so many of your comments. I love it. Thank you.
Thanks so much for listening. My hope is that you walk away from these episodes feeling supported, and like you have a place to come to find the hope and inspiration you need to take your next small step forward.
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He wrote this music and it makes my heart so happy to share it with you here.