We’re going deep on racism and sexual trauma in this episode. We’re also exploring the theory of cultural betrayal, specifically by members of your same race, culture, or even family. Hear how it’s applied to celebrities, politicians, and everyday people. Our guest, Dr. Jennifer Gómez wrote the book on cultural betrayal (literally). Dr. Gómez published groundbreaking work after she developed Cultural Betrayal Trauma Theory as a tool for examining the impacts of discrimination and inequality in the wake of trauma. As an Assistant Professor at Boston University in the Clinical Practice department and as a faculty affiliate for the Center for Innovation in Social Work & Health, Dr. Gómez has made tremendous contributions to trauma therapies. She’s a black feminist trauma researcher and race scholar dedicated to understanding the effects of physical, sexual, and emotional trauma in diverse and marginalized populations. There is something interesting for everyone to take away from this conversation.
This episode was produced by Bright Sighted Podcasting
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Lisa Danylchuk 0:02
Welcome to the How we can heal podcast. My name is Lisa Danylchuk and I'm a psychotherapist specializing in complex trauma treatment. I'm a graduate of UCLA and Harvard University, and I'm thrilled to share these reflections on how we can heal with you today.
Hello, and welcome back to the how we can heal Podcast. Today we're starting a conversation about cultural betrayal, trauma, and getting into some deep topics including racism, sexual trauma, and betrayal. We are lucky to have a guest who's an expert in these areas and brings a perspective of hope and healing to these difficult and multi layered experiences. Our guest today is Dr. Jennifer Gómez. Dr. Gómez is an assistant professor at Boston University in the clinical practice department, and is a faculty affiliate for the Center for Innovation in social work and health. She's a black feminist trauma researcher, and race scholar dedicated to understanding the effects of physical, sexual and emotional trauma in diverse and marginalized populations. She developed cultural betrayal trauma theory, as a tool for examining the impact of discrimination and inequality, on abuse and cultural outcomes of interpersonal trauma. Dr. Gómez serves on the board of directors and as chair of the research advisory committee at the Center for institutional courage, which may sound familiar from our episode last season with Dr. Freid. She's also a senior researcher at the University of Michigan's racism lab, and is a member of the scientific committee of the International Society for the Study of trauma and dissociation. Her research laboratory the HOPE Lab brings healing to the forefront of her work documenting and analyzing the effects of trauma. Jennifer and I first connected when she presented for the ISF TD virtual conference in 2021. And I've been eager to share her work with anyone and everyone Since then, she's worked closely with Dr. Jennifer fried, who we had on the show and season two to talk about institutional courage. And today, Dr. Gomez sheds light on the experience of black women and girls who have been sexually abused and encourages us to value and bring voice to the multifaceted layers of oppression that make these experiences more harmful. She shares with us why it's important to speak to understand and center the narratives and worldviews of those who have experienced this type of cultural betrayal. All while modeling rest, joy and freedom while doing restorative justice and humanitarian work. We get into it, here to really talk about the challenges of this work. And I'm super excited to share this conversation with you. I can't wrap this intro without mentioning her forthcoming book, the cultural betrayal of black women and girls, a black feminist approach to healing from sexual abuse. It will be published by the American Psychological Association in July of 2023. Let's not wait any longer. Let's welcome Jennifer Gómez. Dr. Jennifer Gómez to the show. Welcome to the How we can heal podcast Jennifer Gómez, I am super excited to have you here and to talk about some of your your very important work in this world. So thanks for being here.
Unknown Speaker 3:20
Thanks so much, Lisa. I'm super excited.
Lisa Danylchuk 3:22
And you are at BU now you're at Boston University.
Unknown Speaker 3:26
School of Social Work.
Lisa Danylchuk 3:28
And you're an assistant professor there. All right, yes. Fabulous. I spent a couple of years in that area and really loved it. And I'm assuming you're very cold right now.
Speaker 2 3:38
I'm actually okay. The winters are pretty mild here as far as east coast goes, at least this season. So it's not too terrible. And there's beautiful snow on the ground, which makes me feel happy.
Lisa Danylchuk 3:51
Nice. Yeah, that was the best part of it. I mean, I came from California. So that was like the coldest place on Earth. We're going to talk today about some really important issues related to trauma related to race related to culture. So we're going to dig into all of that want to let folks know who are listening. You know, come back to an easy breath or a little shoulder roll or whatever you need if if things get heavy, but we'll also we'll also keep it light. We'll weave in some some light moments. And I want to just start with you, Jennifer and get to know a little more about your background. How did you get into this work? It's so rich, it's so deep, it permeates so many layers of experience for human beings. What led you to this place?
Speaker 2 4:29
It comes from a few different or a few different places and influences. I was a dancer with the Dance Theatre of Harlem was a ballet company before I went to college that and I'll tell you kind of why in a second combined with Jennifer Fried's work with betrayal trauma theory, as well as over the years getting really rooted in black feminist work. And so, specifically when I was with Dance Theatre of Harlem, Arthur Mitchell, the co founder and director when I was there would say that we carry a mantle group Other than ourselves, he would say it all the time. So you represent black people well when you're touring nationally or internationally, and so we have that kind of bond with each other. And then when we were dance at steps in New York City, it's like an open dance place, the culture of ballet is very elitist. And so if you're lower ranked compared to higher rank, you don't talk. And yet at steps, all of the black dancers knew each other, or were at least friendly with each other, no matter what company you were with, if you work with a company if you were higher ranked or lower ranked. And so when I got exposed Jennifer Fried's work with betrayal trauma theory, when I went back to college, when I went to college, it was just like, Oh, I wonder if that kind of bond or whatever connection that's happening within families that then is violated with abuse. And as a betrayal when abuse happens with a family, I wonder if there's something similar that happens with black people specifically of like, we have this sort of bond different from a family, but it's what I came to call intercultural trust of just like, I think it in like the ballet context, like it's historically white art form and profession, and certainly dominated currently by white people in the profession that I wonder, because of that, like we kind of correctly or incorrectly assume that we're on somewhat of the same page, and definitely need for us to be on the same solidarity page. And so then when violence happens between us, then it's this other kind of betrayal, what I've come to call cultural betrayal. As I was developing it, I began in 2012. So about 10 years ago, a lot of the black feminist scholarship, I'm thinking like Bell Hooks, Audrey Lorde, Michelle, Collins, Ken Crenshaw, all talk about similar kinds of stuff. And without the language of betrayal. And so it was just a marrying of what's already been done. And then he putting it into kind of one, a neat little theory.
Lisa Danylchuk 6:58
There's so many important things that you're highlighting and what you're describing. And I'm thinking actually, a few people who have been on the podcast before have talked about being in dance and maybe gravity, gravitating more towards yoga, because there wasn't quite the same. There's other structures that can be problematic, but quite the same hierarchy, sort of in grouping and out grouping that happens. But you're also bringing up feminism, you're bringing up black feminism, you're bringing up a cultural betrayal trauma theory, which you created. I'm wondering if you can define feminism and even differentiate that if need be from black feminism?
Speaker 2 7:33
Oh, that's it. Yeah, sure. So I'm laughing because we had this conversation with my editors for my upcoming book, and the title has like feminine is it in it? And I remember telling them like, I know it sounds redundant, because we're saying black women and girls and then black feminism. But black feminism is different than feminism. And so we have to separate it. So for me, I'm from the tradition of kind of black feminism and womanist. I'm Alice Walker, and how that's distinguished for me how I understand it is that when I say white feminism, it's a pejorative. It's not a compliment. It's not even just a descriptor, I'm speaking about the lineage, and like women's liberation, etc, of relatively well off white women middle class and above, straight or lived a life of being heterosexual and wanting to be treated the same way that white men who also were well off, retreated, and specifically related to the workforce, and how that was happening with steal some things from black feminism a bit as goes on, but also was extremely exclusionary because of racism, certainly racism and classism of, we're going for equality, but it's equality within our already privileged group. And we are very deliberately not just not being inclusive of women of color, like third world feminism, but the racism really interfering with wanting to be associated with women of color, and then classism interfering with wanting to be associated with women who were lower class. And that matters, because bigotry is not great, because oh man was on the face. But also the issues that women of color were experiencing were different than the rich white women that dominate this movement. For instance, women of color have been used to working outside the home because they have to win often we're working in the homes of rich white women who wanted to go into the workforce. And so not every feminist who's a white woman I would put in the white feminist category. But for those who are it's quite different and different again, not for lack of awareness. Not that black women haven't been saying oh and women of color in third world feminists have like there's this other stuff going on, and homophobia, right and All of these different things happening. And additionally, and I think relevant to my work with cultural betrayal trauma theory is this needed bond and cultural bond that we have with black men, and then in other groups with men of color of the kind of white feminists, separatists notions of like we can do it without the men or any issue like sexual assault on college campuses, you'll have like a white feminist framework of well, if a student is found culpable for a sexual assault, kick them off campus, that doesn't quite translate over to black women or to other women of color to begin, like a generalization sense here. Because we don't have the luxury or the culture to say, Screw the men will do it without them because we feel solidarity with men, like members of the Combahee River collective talked about like, we work alongside of black men in particular towards equality and we fight with black men about their need to deal with their sexism, and to have the bond go back towards black women and not just one way towards black men.
Lisa Danylchuk 11:13
It feels like it's really challenging to tease out okay, what here is racism? What here is sexism? What here is classism, right? Like they were all sort of bundling together in this way, when you're when you're differentiating these types, like What's black feminism? What's white feminism, what's, you know, beyond that, there are so interlinked, and I think that, that leads us to cultural betrayal trauma theory, which overlaps at least a few of these. And, you know, the first time I heard the term, I heard of your work through Jennifer Fried's work and calls for betrayal, trauma, I thought, oh, that must be when the larger culture isn't supportive of you. Yeah, you're betrayed American culture has the these oppressive systems built in? And so my initial internal definition of cultural betrayal trauma was your culture isn't supporting you. It's discriminatory, it's oppressive fill in the blanks. And then I learned, that's not exactly what it is. And I think these complexities are really important for for folks to be able to have words for, right because I think these a lot of your work, it's, it's describing dynamics that we feel internally, and especially if we're really non verbally aware to and we're really like, empathetic, we're like tuned in to like, something's happening here with power, something's happening here where I don't feel supported, or I don't feel safe. And sometimes we have the words for that. And sometimes it's just an exchange and a social experience. And so I think your work is super important in bringing language bringing an idea bringing a framework for folks to say, oh, that I felt that before, right? I've been I've been in those shoes. So can you explain it in your words that you've done so many times, and in so many ways written and vodcast? And lecture form? And conversation form? What is cultural betrayal trauma theory? And how would you explain it to a listener? Who's maybe hearing about it for the first time today?
Speaker 2 13:18
Yeah, yeah, I will. And but I want to address the the cultural betrayal, thinking of it as like the larger culture is not the first who's thought that and the decision to have the cultural betrayal piece be within marginalized culture was a deliberate one, to center our culture as the one kind of that is in the forefront, as opposed to always being in relation to the larger culture. And when I was first thinking about terminology, and just like throwing out like, what will this be called? I thought a bit about like, minority betrayal, maybe that's more accurate. And then it includes like women who are lower status, but then it was like, don't like the word minority even 10 years ago, I really love it, but also it it takes away the centrality and the importance of us and existence, beyond our relationship to the larger scale agriculture. But with that, so what is it so the idea is that you have this societal trauma of some kind, like racism, let's say we'll take black people and racism as an example. And so, then, black people, some black people develop what I call intra cultural trust. And the reason the entrance in there is because cultural mistrust is a term in the literature, which is black people's mistrust of the larger cultural systems, the white cultural systems. So, Cultural Trust is not the inverse of that. So to separate it, then I have enshrine parentheses on the same word as Cultural Trust. So intercultural trust, then, is this love loyalty, connection responsibilities, solidarity, like I am because we are like we're in This together. And that being very positive thing against this mean, you know structural and cultural and systemic racism. So the problem arises when you have violence happen within the black community, and specifically why I've been focusing more recently and what the book focuses on is blackmail perpetrated sexual violence against black women and girls. And so when you have this intercultural trust, this solidarity, and then it's broken with this violence and call it a cultural betrayal. So then, within group violence, black perpetrator black victim, is a cultural betrayal, trauma. And then I propose in the theory that those cultural betrayal traumas that within group violence is associated with abuse outcomes, which are things that we typically think about with with trauma and violence, things like PTSD, just sation suicide, and then cultural outcomes, things that we typically don't think about with trauma, things like internalized prejudice. So if, if this if this violence is part of what it means to be black, then, you know, I don't want I don't want any part of it seems like a pretty heavy cost. And research has shown that yeah, cultural betrayal, trauma is associated with things like internalized prejudice and changes to racial identity. I think the the last piece that I'll talk about at least right now with the theory, so if we're thinking about, like intercultural trust, as, by and large, positive, it's like the solidarity thing that protects us against this racism business, you can think of intercultural pressure as like a negative inversion of that trust and manipulation of that trust. So it's key problems and house, I'll tell anybody silencing that if you speak up about what happened, then you're going to make us all look bad. And they're already against us. Right? The police, the judges, the social workers, psychologists, right, the educational system, we don't need to draw attention to ourselves. So be quiet. We can see how massage Anwar coming from Bally how sexism then deals with, like, whose kind of black issues are the ones that get to be discussed? And if women, sis women, trans women are in and about a half of the black population? Why isn't the sexual abuse a bigger issue? Why when a research from myself and large Johnson, with college populations of black young women, shows that it's about one in three who have been sexually abused in their lifetime? College students who are young one and three, those are insane numbers.
Lisa Danylchuk 17:43
It is mind boggling, right? And especially if you sit in a college classroom and look out at
Speaker 2 17:48
the audience, just count them out. Yeah, like how many people this is? Yeah.
Lisa Danylchuk 17:52
And knowing that I think there's so much. So much of the work I've done has been around like trauma informed yoga or trauma and bringing this awareness that people like, oh, I don't teach trauma informed yoga, I'm like, Well, do you teach yoga? Yeah. Like, oh, I can pretty much guarantee you there are people in your class who are going through trauma have been through trauma or, you know, carrying that onto their mat in some way or another. So, yeah, I think that prevalence is really important to keep in mind. And these dynamics are so important to voice in particular, because of the silencing piece that you're talking about. Because there can be multiple cultural pressures or gender related pressures to wrap it up and not talk about it. Or, you know, there could just be a lot of shame there, too. I'm wondering if you have any examples you'd like to share? And they might be from, you know, popular culture or just, you know, general news or someone you've worked with? Like, what does it look like in real life? How have we maybe seen this happen before? Oh, oh, yeah. Like plenty. My response
Unknown Speaker 18:56
I was like, there's a lot Lisa, which
Lisa Danylchuk 18:57
one would you which one?
Speaker 2 18:59
So our Kelly is a very prominent and easy example, I've been black my whole life. I don't know how much it was known that he was sexually abusive outside of specifically the African American community. Like I don't know if you all were aware, but within the blast as we African American community, we've all known this since the early to mid 90s, that he sexually abused as black teen girls, this was not a secret. This was not close. It wasn't even his predatory behavior was discussed in in a much more natural kind of even salacious way at the time, and I kind of bridge it to kind of Harvey Weinstein finally being held accountable what that was like within Hollywood of like the everybody knew, but same sort of thing here. So what we've seen over the years are cases from the 90s child sexual abuse pornography, where he's having sex quote, unquote, on with a child on film. He wasn't got convicted of that, that tape was being circulated, like bootleg in the black community during that time period, um, in the early 2000s. And we've had efforts of in the 2000s and beyond like mute our Kelly obviously dream Hampton surviving our Kelly. So how is this related? So one could imagine a world in which if we wanted to protect the black community, because we live in this racist society, then behavior like our Kelley's would not be tolerated, right. It's like you need to stop because you're making us all look bad. That's not what we see, though. And it's like, why is that? You know, and I've been trying to figure this out over the years. And I think that the best thing I've found so far to explain this fully is Kathy Cohen. And political science has a theory of secondary marginalization. And so you have black people as marginalized, right? Or marginalized. And then within the black community, you have secondary marginalization for everybody else who's not black sis, man or boy. So then what you have is that piece that black women and girls are lower status. And then you have kind of the classic trauma dynamics of who does trauma, sexual abuse, rape, belong to, right. And so a perpetrator isn't saying, You're not going to believe what happened, I raped this woman in this very disgusting way, let me describe it to you where he would have to own that behavior. Instead, the woman owns that behavior, the girl because she's the one disclosing and so then all of the feelings we have about rape and sexual abuse that's uncomfortable or shameful, or that kind of taps into our own experiences of sexual abuse that isn't process, then all gets heaped upon the black women and the black woman or girl. And then on top of all of that, you have this big racism business, you know, of like, why is it that we have people like Woody Allen and Roman Polanski, who won an Oscar after his alleged sexual abuse of a child? Why is it that we know it's going to be different for black men, because of the racism and because of the tropes that black men in particular have, have dealt with of being sexually aggressive and so on? Where it becomes manipulative and where I think is important to separate out like, what is black solidarity and what are just abusive tactics that take the form of black solidarity. And so an example here is a Anita Hill and Clarence Thomas and Anita Hill, testifying and almost a 91. Regarding to be confirmed Supreme Court Justice, Clarence Thomas, is what I would call cultural betrayal, sexual harassment of her. And he called it publicly a high tech lynching. What what's watching me? Well, so it's white people's like murder, or like public murder of black men and boys, it's under the guise of false accusations from white women that they raped them. Right? So what he's done then is Clarence Thomas has placed himself in the category of victims of racism, violent racism, like Emmett Till, and then put Anita Hill in the category of like, a white, murderous mob.
Lisa Danylchuk 23:28
It's Darmowe, right?
Speaker 2 23:30
Yes, it's like a very, like high tech Darboe coming from China for fried, deny, attack, reverse victim and offender a very sophisticated kind of high level cultural manipulation. Yes. And where it puts us then is, well, you can be either against racism, or you can be against sexual violence, and you couldn't possibly be against a both and the need for us and thinking about like healing, etc, of like, black solidarity, isn't that, like black solidarity is supposed to be positive. It's supposed to be a bond, to the extent that it's manipulated and perverted to be that I, as a child, sexual abuser can continue to sexually abuse that is on a byproduct of blackness or maleness and we can see that for what it is as a Darbo. That's fairly sophisticated.
Lisa Danylchuk 24:24
Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, I'm, I'm struck, as you're talking about by the complexity of all of this, and how I think it's so easy to kind of get lost in that, particularly as as a victim or as someone watching, right? what's true, what's really happening. And then I think of the context of the world we live in today, where, you know, it's so easy for us to be distracted. It's so easy the way social media is set up for things to feel polarized, that the way we tend to in the larger sense Approach marketing is like getting emotion and get people connected to an emotion. And so I'm just thinking of the stories that become eventually in some way news. And people, you know, hearing some element of them and identifying with some aspects, but the complexity of the things that you're mapping takes some cognitive effort, right? And some perspective taking to go. Okay, what is it like to stand in this person's shoes? What is it like to stand in this person's shoes? How do we differentiate something that's machismo from something that's abusive, or something that's paternalistic from something that's oppressive or? Right. And I feel like there's all these elements of gender and sexuality. And as you said earlier, class and social structure and race and so again, it, I think it people can start to feel kind of muddled in it. And like, Oh, this is overwhelming. Well, if I can't turn to my culture for support in this, you know, in this circle of trust, well, then where do I go? So I'm wondering if in in some of the experiences you've had people you've worked with stories you've seen public or not? How do people start to sort through this and see it because especially if you're the person experiencing the trauma, all the physiological responses, and all the mental, emotional, psychological, social impacts of that, it's hard enough, I think, for for folks to even identify, deny, attack, reverse victim and offender from the inside and the outside. It's hard enough just to map that Darbo. But there's also this element of like, once you really see it, you can't unsee it. And so that's like, my hope for for your work is that, I mean, you see it, you're in it, and you see it everywhere, which is I asked for an example. And you're like, which one? Let's open that and pull one out. And I think we can start to identify this and see it with more clarity. So I'm wondering what you've seen help folks establish some of that clarity and even start to take steps in a healing direction? What could feel like, overwhelming complexity mess? Of who do I trust? Where do I get help? How do we navigate through this
Speaker 2 27:13
was? So my initial response is that I will actually know that it's that hard to see. And the reason I say that for people who are in it, I don't know what I don't know what it's like to be a white person in a white community that's not marginalized. So I think there's a translation needs to happen with that, that we can discuss. But my experience of sharing this work is that people do see these things. The problem isn't the identification, per se of these things. Because this is the world in which we live, if you're a black woman, then you are dealing with racism and sexism and classism, and etc. And you deal with those things or don't, however you do, and the sexual abuse, kind of cultural betrayal falls within whatever your understanding is of those different things that you when people who you know, and love are experiencing. I think the piece where I often see people get stuck, see myself get stuck, is the kind of internalized white supremacy and the, like, what are the costs of this truth. Like if this were true, and if I have to really believe and behave as if this is true, then what I have to sit with is that this black community that is so important to me, and that I feel so culturally bonded to with specific individuals and with like, a femoral, you know, just kind of like community that that isn't as safe as what I need it to be the other world, the world that has the power in spaces where I would need to go to get mental health care, treatment, or whatever, is still going to be the same racist, sexist, etc. Place it always was. And so, for me, that's the fundamental harm of cultural betrayal trauma are that you're stuck in between these two places have an unsupportive black in this case, but marginalized community and then obviously discriminatory everywhere else, where you try to go. And so then the noticing it isn't the problem. It's though but what if that is true? And I think what we can do in terms of healing is complicating that truth. So like part of the white supremacy, is that all black people are the same. There is one singular black community and then all black people in that one black community are the same. Well, that's not true, right? There's lots of different pockets, and we don't have to take on the kind of singular dimensions of blackness. We can also be looking back to our histories that were not often taught in school of like Rosa Parks, for example, like well known for sitting on the bus and you know, fighting for rights there and starting this movement, much less known that she advocated against sexual abuse of black women and girls, wouldn't she know it, we're not taught those things. But when we're able to learn those and be thinking that Anita Hill is a legend for me and for many people, and that she didn't come ahead of her time, and she wasn't the first she's in a long line of black feminist activists and scholars who have been doing this for hundreds of years. And so when you start to understand that and you start to be aware of who are these people, like this bridge called my back, right boy on the other one today Maga when you know of this work, then it becomes Okay, who was my community? It's not this one dimensional thing where like, I'm actually in between these spaces of unsupportive here. And then discriminatory there. I'm actually placed with in a long line of past and present people who are doing this work, who are fighting this fight, who are surviving who are dying, but dying, as you know, going for what they want and need. And so I think, helping people helping ourselves to understand the depravity of all these dimensions, what does it take to have an adult rape a child like lots of terrible stuff, right? Sort of is like the same kind of stuff that allows white person to dehumanize black person, right as the same sickness just manifesting in these different ways. And when we can put those pieces together, it can be overwhelming. But it also can be like this clarifying thing of like, I like dehumanization, as the root of all evil. Got it? If we start there, then now how do we figure it out? Yes, what to do about it? How do we expand what we think about as blackness and how it differentiates us? Things like, well, I don't want to say something and make you know, black people look bad if I say that I've been sexually abused by so and so black man. That only follows if you believe that black men are paired with being rapists. And this is just part of means to be a black man. Right? If that is not true. And since that is not true, then we could be expecting not to be raped in the black community, right or within our black families. And we can say when it is happening, and when there is this manipulation, this manipulative, cultural Darboe business of the art Kelly's and Clarence Thomas is of the world famous and not, I'm not the only ones to take these arguments when we're in that space, so we can say yeah, black is beautiful. And we're always having this this nonsense that you're this is not
Lisa Danylchuk 32:40
a part of what it means to be black. Yes. Separate acting it. Yeah. Eating it. There's so many amazing things you bring up. And I said this earlier, I feel like we could have like 12 pot because we could have like a whole season. And that's just you. Because there's so many different avenues. But two things you said that I want to highlight. One is this creation of a safe space, right? By finding Oh, here are these people who've been doing this work. And this is the place where I feel understood and seen and protected. And other people are seeing these dynamics too, right? Because I think part of that confusion that I've heard or seen comes from being in a place where you can't talk about it, no one wants to talk about it. And this is just the way it is and then someone who's you know, being silenced within that goes, what, what's, what's happening to me that I see things this way, and everyone else is saying this is okay, or they don't want to talk about it. So I think that paving that path, and just there is this group of people across time and in present that understand and see with clarity, and the dehumanization, underneath all of that. As like a foundational piece. I feel like there's so many young people I've worked with, where there's just this intuitive sense of that of being treated with dignity and humanity, and then it goes off, but they might not have the words at the age that it goes off. And then there's still this sense later of like, this isn't right, but maybe not the language to describe it. So I feel like just having that language and and naming that there. There is a culture and a group of people that that are safe and supportive. I feel like those two things are, are really important. Yeah. And the other thing you brought up that I want to ask you about is in terms of this educational piece and larger white supremacist culture, you know, what do you feel like it's important for people to understand in those spaces about the cultural betrayal trauma of black women and girls it because I think your book speaks to I haven't read it yet. I'm excited to read it but I'm guessing it's speaking to multiple audiences, right. So I'm wondering what you think the larger let's just say American or I mean, we could go further than that. But the larger American culture within mental health and beyond, you know, popular culture and needs to understand here. Oh,
Speaker 2 35:02
it's a fantastic question. So happy that you asked. The first take home that's relatively easy to say probably harder in practice, is that the harm of cultural betrayal be? It's because of the white supremacy. It's not because of, of the black people, because there wouldn't be a need to have the solidarity that buffers against what if there's nothing there, there's no reason to have a buffer. And so with cultural betrayal, trauma theory, everything linked, goes back up to the societal trauma of racism, etc. And I think that's the first piece that and that helps us to have conversations that are fruitful, and that are not reifying, a purported violent black community that remains violent and others cultural betrayal to where they're still violent. I mean, of like, this is about a racism thing. And that's you always problem. It's your system. That's your problem. I missed the first and that's easier. For the book, I did a brilliant thing I'll say, when I, and that I gave each chapter to between one and three and formal reviewers before it went back to the publisher, because they're like, What do you think so those people were like, they are experts in this critical chapter area, or they're outsiders. And some of the outsiders were white colleagues of mine. And I said, Hey, what do you think about this stuff? People I really love and really admire and respect. Some of them having problems and feeling defensive, you know, in the chapter where I'm discussing racism, feeling defensive, when in the chapter, I'm talking about therapy and where I'm criticizing the medical model, and I'm saying, well, that's a, the the DSM, the medical model is a cultural way of understanding psychological distress. It's not my way or all of our ways. And because of that process, and saying, Okay, if people who I believe are thinking people and who would want to get this book are having problems. And then for all of us who have internalized white supremacy, in the introduction chapter, I have a black feminist primer of like, here's what you need to do to be able to read this. One is that the first audience are black women. You're welcome to be here, the rest of you. But it's it's black women, first than black community, than people who are marginalized outside of race. And then rich white people are on the outside, which privileged white people. You're not the first audience that is jolting. It's jolting for me to write because I'm always used to having I discuss it in the book of like the white read of like, if I'm writing something, how will they understand this? Right, take this out. It's jolting I think, for purely academic white readers to be like, oh, wait a second, I have to just like have my whole worldview not be centered here. I have to take as truth and fact other worldviews. And so what I did specifically with the book, is I said things like, there's structural and cultural racism, and it exists. I cite it, but I don't go through a whole proving of how that's true. Go really what I cited. But I'm not pulling that particular thing. I'm additionally, and this is coming from Patricia Hill, Collins, black feminist thought book quite a bit of the importance of black feminist epistemology. And so if we're looking at like how the mental healthcare system works, for instance, it can't just be and I'm interpreting here from my field from her. It can't just be that we say, how do we adapt it to black women? That's only part of our job. And maybe there's value in that in that piece of the field? Sure, there is. But it's additionally, like, what are we calling mental distress? Who are we calling pathological? Who and What are we not calling pathological and as from a black feminist frame, and that's important for us to be saying, it's important for us to be saying, why do we believe that certain things are factual, and that other things need to be proven? So for me with cultural betrayal trauma theory, it was five years before anything peer reviewed, was published. That wasn't for lack of trying. That was for rejection after rejection, probably 20. In those five years, it's been I stopped counting at 20 because it got depressing. But it was a like, people the powers were saying kind of one of two things. One, cultural betrayal, and inequality don't exist in any way. That's a value. So what you're saying just doesn't hold water is make sense. And the other piece was like, we can't care about black survivors about survivors of color, like we know about trauma. Because we have it we're always white populations, like we cannot care about something over here. And kind of those two things happening. The development of cultural betrayal theory was happening alongside the development of Carly Smith and Jennifer Fry's institutional betrayal. Yeah, It was fascinating that institution betrayal was also quite new and quite different and happening
Lisa Danylchuk 40:05
to you. Sure, yeah.
Speaker 2 40:13
Also of like, they should have had the same problems I had. And because it was, it was a new problem, or I should have the same success that they had, that they were published an American psychologist, a major journal, their second year out, that has not been true for cultural betrayal trauma theory, because of these different these different layers. And so with the with the black feminist primer, I think a piece that that is difficult for, for folks, for the dominant cultural folks is like one that you don't have immutable facts on your side. And I think that's difficult for people of like, you can believe and abide by the DSM five for various reasons. And that is not 100%. factual. That is your cultural worldview. And it's based on how you see the world, like internal locus of control, for instance, would be one that you think, try really hard by yourself, and you can, you know, be pathological or be successful. That's a different worldview than the one that I come from, that you have to take as equally factual or equally valid, a different perspective. And I think for people who are reading the book, and I hope people have all these different kind of audiences I described, I would love everyone to read the book, but it's gonna require for people who are the most distal from a marginalized experience, to say, I'm not the center of the universe, there are other human beings in the world, there are different perspectives in the world. And I want to understand that, because I don't think that myself, and my white peers are the only people in the whole world that matters. And I think a key thing that I tell kind of when I worked in academia, etc, of like, if you are behaving in any way, that would be the same individually or systemically, as a card carrying member of the kk k, then rethink it. Yeah. Right. And so if you're getting defensive that a different understanding of mental health is happening, and you want to dominate and say no, but I know that I'm right. And I want to power over you to say that, if that student kind of similar, yeah, it would do this, this feeling familiar? Yeah. So maybe rethinking? And I think it's possible. And I think the work has to come on that on that side.
Lisa Danylchuk 42:40
And I'm thinking, as you're talking about racism, and sexual abuse, and the role of dissociation in both, and I'm listening, as you're describing this, and I think a lot about the larger role of dissociation in sort of public consciousness, pop culture, you know, and a lot of what I'm hearing is this, a, we can't know that now. Like, that's, that's too much, or that's, that's not, you know, it's just not part of the worldview, or it's not important to us. But I keep thinking about dissociation in terms of like this distancing from something that, you know, is a painful reality in the past in terms of history, the United States in terms of many places in the world in different ways. But there's, there's, again, in my mind, a lot of really trauma laden experiences in there, when we're talking about when we're talking about racism when we're talking about sexual abuse. So I'm wondering if you can speak to, as I imagine you do in the book, the role of dissociation as it fits into cultural betrayal, trauma theory, and maybe even as it fits into this process of getting your work out there. Oh,
Speaker 2 43:48
yeah, that's a nice one. For dissociation, I think just very classically, like cultural betrayal, trauma has been associated with dissociation. And that that's not terribly surprising. For me, dissociation is like a beautiful, wonderful gift. Right? Because the world is like the worst sometimes
Lisa Danylchuk 44:08
adaptation. It's a protective response. Yeah.
Speaker 2 44:12
It really it really makes sense. And so what we have to be thinking about with dissociation, in my opinion, is that when do the costs become greater than the benefits? And how can we understand our dissociation part of what you're talking about least I think is like a cognitive dissociation of like, how present can I be to this setting, wherever that is within the family, racist organization that you work in? People you love being racist or sexist, etc. How do you deal with that law? No. Nelson Zulu and myself have a paper recently published about rotating betrayal blindness, and to forgive the ableist term ms came out in in the 90s. And with Jennifer Fried's work with betrayal blindness of like a kind of traumatic amnesia and what We talk about Lauren all myself and Nelson zulum Is this rotating betrayal blindness that it can change by context. And so I might be fully aware that I come from an abusive family when I'm off at college. But when I go visit home, I become much less aware that I'm part of that family, we have a measurement of betrayal, blindness questionnaires there to kind of be having more in the mainstream memory vacillations and have the context dependency of memory, because of dissociation or need to dissociate in terms of cultural betrayal in particular, and how I think, at least something that you're pointing to Lisa, you robbed me if I'm wrong, are like these layered harms that you have this racism harm that you could very well dissociate from, but then you all have this excellent business, and you have massage Anwar, and then you have secondary marginalization, then you have sexual abuse and heaven, hell, Bishop, all the stuff that comes with sexual abuse and processing through that relationally and sexually and all these different ways. And culturally, I feel like and to the extent that dissociation is discussed in the mainstream, which still is, isn't so much and it was longer. So it is, I would wish it would be, I feel like I can just get a bad rap, as opposed to like, how can we harness our dissociation for good and understand when our dissociation means that we may be disconnected from it, but our bodies are taking the hit for it, you and I mean, like, we're becoming sick, we're not able to sleep. Our bodies are breaking down, we have headaches, we have back pain, etc. Because it's now manifesting physically, like, how can we interrupt that process? But how can we use it because a lot of times in what I'm thinking of in trauma and sexual abuse, we here we talk about the importance of like, bearing witness, right, it's important to bear witness to other people's traumas, I do believe in that. I also believe that like, it's a lot, like, it's a lot and silent dissociate,
Lisa Danylchuk 47:04
because at a physiological level, even our bodies, just go nope.
Speaker 2 47:10
Yes. And how can we again, like, like, complicate this out of like, you can be in this field, you can be an advocate, you can be etc, etc, care about this be fighting the good fight. And you can also check out sometimes, and that can be okay, too, doesn't make you a bad person. And I think that when thinking about kind of sexual abuse, cultural betrayal, trauma, racism, how this comes in of like a black person, I need to be, you know, fighting against racism all the time is what it feels like, as a sexual abuse researcher, I need to be fighting against and amplifying the problem, sexual abuse all the time. And part of what harms dramatic harms like this, like racism and sexism and sexual abuse can do to us is it can tell us that we get to earn our keep in the world, since we survived by fighting the good fight constantly, as opposed to were inherently worthy, and inherently have value. And that means when I'm on vacation, that means when I'm resting, that means when I'm giving back to the world, and not just I'm resting so I can get back to the world again. Yes, yeah.
Lisa Danylchuk 48:24
Which has an exploitive dynamic to it, right?
Speaker 2 48:27
Similar to sexual abuse, right? Like all in racism, right. There's
Lisa Danylchuk 48:31
all and all of it right there. And I mean, even when you look at social structures and classism, there's, there's this element of exploitation that I feel like is underneath a lot of and so maybe that's another, you know, thing we can land on at times, like does this feel exploitive? And unfortunately, the answer is yes. A lot of the times, I think when we when we look into that a little bit more, and so like, I always think, like a yoga thing to have like, well, if if they're humanitarianism is the positive thing underneath. And exploitation seems to be the negative thing underneath, like, how do we bridge? How do we go from one to the other. So the example you were just giving about rest and regeneration, so that you can go out there and do the work? Right. And I think, at some level, in terms of what I understand of our biology, you know, it's healthy and helpful for us to serve and support and be a part of a community and feel like we're doing generative work that other people benefit from, I think across the board across age, like we want to be connected and included and have some kind of supportive service, right. But But then, if that's the only thing, even as a sexual abuse researcher, if that's the only thing Well, this is my worth, and my value comes from serving this community and fighting the good fight for my entire life and never resting. Then that becomes exploitive. Right. So the humanitarian thing would be I'm Human. Yeah, I deserve vacations. I'm not the only person I'm a part. Again, going back to that community you described, I'm a part of this community in this lineage of people who are, are labeling this who are speaking about this and bringing it more to awareness. And I have, you know, have the support of of all of those people. And I can lie down because I want to lie down, not just because I have to get up and do something else later. Right? Yeah. Joy my life.
Speaker 2 50:32
Yes, yes. And like a reflection. What I do for myself is like a, what am I fighting for? Like I'm fighting for hopefully, the world is going to be a better a different place. So people can do what, like, have more joy? You know, I'm saying, yeah, so why should only future people or only non me people be experiencing joy? Like, why am I fighting for it, then like, we can all just be sacrificing ourselves. Like, we don't get joy. But we think joy is important. We think freedom is important. But not for myself, but only for other people in the future for that, you know, I'm saying. And so I just I think it's helpful to be grounded, it's helped me at least to be grounded in a really like, why am I doing this and like an I'm one of these people also. And so I deserve the things that I'm trying to help promote other people, you know, and having,
Lisa Danylchuk 51:30
I see that that's such an issue and just a community of, you know, mental health providers and wellness providers. And I think, especially with the last few years of pandemic, right, people are wanting to be supportive and burning out in so many ways. And so I think this piece is central. I also think about modeling like, Well, why don't we model joy? Why don't we model rest? Why don't we model freedom, right? Rather than, you know, jumping into those same dynamics at times that we're fighting against while fighting against them? And I think that's a that's a process for each of us to reckon with really reckon internally, like, why am I doing this? And what am I doing? What's driving it? What are the results, maybe in a simplified way, like almost a cost benefit analysis, but really a deeper existential question of like, well, why am I here? And what? What do I What's my legacy? And what's my experience of life? And those are all, I think, important and deep questions. Yeah. Thanks so much for listening. My hope is that you walk away from these episodes feeling supported, and like you have a place to come to find the hope and inspiration you need to take your next small step forward. For more information and resources, please visit my website how we can heal.com There you'll find tons of helpful resources and the full transcript of each show. You can also click the podcast menu to submit requests for upcoming topics and guests. I look forward to hearing your ideas
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