In the world of trauma recovery you can be an expert, and still find it challenging to navigate your own trauma recovery. In today’s episode, Guy Macpherson shares his personal path through earning a doctorate in clinical psychology, treating early psychosis, and sharing expert insights on trauma and healing through his podcast. With all the training and knowledge he has gained, Guy shares that authenticity, connection and “humanness” lay at the heart of healing. He shares how challenging it can be to recognize your own experience of trauma and dissociation. He also share how, through his own personal experience, he learned that things like bullying and divorce can be traumatic.
In 2014 Guy founded The Trauma Therapist Project to raise awareness of trauma, and create an educational and supportive community for new trauma workers. Now, the associated podcast has hundreds of episodes and an audience in more than 160 countries. As Guy explains, a determined approach to help trauma victims can go a long way, regardless of a therapist’s level of experience.
Resources:
About Guy’s Trauma Therapist Project
More on Guy (bio)
This episode was produced by Bright Sighted Podcasting
FULL TRANSCRIPT BELOW
- This transcript was auto-generated
Lisa Danylchuk 0:02
Welcome to the How we can heal podcast. My name is Lisa Danylchuk and I'm a psychotherapist specializing in complex trauma treatment. I'm a graduate of UCLA and Harvard University, and I'm thrilled to share these reflections on how we can heal with you today.
Today, our guest is Guy Macpherson guy is the creator and host of the trauma therapist podcast where he and I originally connected when he invited me on to record episode 33. Way back in 2014. The trauma therapist podcast now has over 700 episodes, and 1000s of loyal listeners in more than 160 countries around the world. Guy also offers online workshops and training for trauma therapists, along with podcasting workshops for mental health professionals. Guy is not only a leader in the field of trauma, connection and growth, he's also one of the most genuine, heartfelt and thought provoking people you could hope to meet. He's been on the show once before, and I'm so grateful to have him back. Let's welcome guy to the show. Guy Macpherson. Welcome back to the podcast.
Guy Macpherson 1:08
Lisa, thank you so much for having me back.
Lisa Danylchuk 1:09
You're such a big part of how this podcast came to fruition. So thank you for being here and your continued support.
Guy Macpherson 1:15
Appreciate that. I'm excited. Little nervous. Really? I mean that you know, who wants to listen to me?
Lisa Danylchuk 1:22
Oh, I don't know, Mr. 708 100 episodes. And I think we all are listening,
Guy Macpherson 1:28
guys listening to my guess, certainly.
Lisa Danylchuk 1:32
continuous thread throughout all of that. I don't know what it
Guy Macpherson 1:35
is. Right. Right. Right. Well, thanks for having me.
Lisa Danylchuk 1:39
brings me to my first question. Yeah, have been leading a very successful podcast on trauma. I'm curious, when you first learned about trauma, how'd you how'd you get into hosting this podcast
Guy Macpherson 1:49
will tell you, I was working at a clinic in Northern California. And right out of graduate school, we were assessing and treating young kids who are showing early signs of psychosis. I mean, that that's not the first time I learned about trauma, being a one out, you know, when trauma became a thing? Jesus, I think it was, let me tell you, when I started the podcast, from that experience in that clinic, and we were assessing kids, one of the things we had to do was a phone intake, right, and therapists would call or teachers would call or parents would call seeing if their kid was right for the program. And I loved doing this over the phone, because you had to, like ask questions and figure out what was going on with these kids? Yeah, 1112 1314 1516 17 year old kids. And you initially, as part of our protocol, you'd have to ask about trauma, and you'd have to use that word. Yeah. Concurrent with this, I've been going through level one and level two of sensorimotor psychotherapy training. So I was like, amped and jazz, you know, had all this knowledge, right, or some knowledge. And I was also in a consultation group with Janina Fisher. So I was getting all this information. And, and I was able to use that information to to be more subtle in how we asked about trauma came more, because a lot of parents were like, Well, no, I've never experienced any trauma, or my son's never experienced any trauma, or no, she's never been in combat has never been raised above the law. Right. And we learned to use more questions about, you know, and talking to the kids. Have you ever felt unsafe? When were their experiences where you ever did feel unsafe? Did you ever witness any domestic violence, sir. And I was blown away by the number of people, the number of kids who experience trauma, I mean, it sound that's not surprising, but also, the number of parents certainly didn't know, right? You can forgive that to a certain degree. But a lot of therapists didn't recognize that bullying could be dramatic or witnessing to domestic violence could be dramatic, or even how to ask about that to uncover that. Right. And I, Lisa, I got so a deal. And then two weeks later, or a week later, these kids would come into the office, and they'd be holding their stuffy or hold holding their journal or holding a book. They're the kids. Yes. I'm like, what? Literally, what is going on? I got so frustrated. And I was like, What can I do? What can I do? I've never started a podcast before. But at the same time, I've been commuting back and forth to this job and I was listening to a lot of podcasts about entrepreneurs like you heating their lives doing their thing. Yeah, myself. Wouldn't it be cool? If I had Jimmy and Fisher? right there next to me while I was driving? And I could ask her questions you could mentor me. That's how it came about.
Lisa Danylchuk 5:16
That's so cool. Yeah. So it's out of necessity of what you're seeing in the clinical population in front of you, what you're needing as a newer new ish therapist, and, and as an ongoing therapist, I mean, we all need ongoing support and consultation and learning. So you just dove straight in from there, I
Guy Macpherson 5:34
go straight in. And I also saw around me, all my fellow therapists at the time, who wanted to help people, of course, but who didn't have that knowledge in trauma, and consequently, who were didn't feel fit to, you know, talk to a client who's coming in who had a serious trauma background, and I was like, Okay, I'll take this person, even though I didn't know what the hell he was doing a lot of times, but I was able and willing to walk into that circle with them. You know, and I, and even though I didn't know anything, I mean, I knew a little bit, but I didn't have the experience. I was able, and willing to meet them. At that moment, in their in in that trauma moment, you know, and I didn't realize the extent to which my own bullying I'd experienced as a young kid impacted, and, and fueled this whole need almost to get into this field, to help other people
Lisa Danylchuk 6:52
to understand it. And then to you know, just having a conversation with Wendy Lemke about this, we're talking about clinical hypnosis, and she was talking about that post traumatic growth that comes in how so many therapists have been through trauma because you know, and then they're looking and digging and trying to make make good of it. Right? Well, let me understand this. And let me pass it on. And let me support other people who are maybe in the thick of it, like you said that moment. And they're not seeing it from this outside, you know, clinical perspective of all the ways we break down and try to understand trauma and PTSD and treatment, like, there's just in it, right. But if you've done both of those things, you've been in it and you've stepped out and you've sorted through and you've worked through and you've learned and you've trained and you've heard of people, then yeah, you can absolutely be someone who can at least be there with someone in it and can also reach out a helping hand and help them navigate their way through and you think about that little kid with a stuffy, runny, like if they can get that then in the moment and not have to wait until they're 24. And then therapy are right. I mean, that's so valuable.
Guy Macpherson 7:55
Yeah. And the thing for me, I have all this knowledge I just got out of my program. I of course, I know what to do, of course, this is going to you know, this intervention is going to help and this technique is going to help. And I just, it was a big learning experience for me. Something's happened along the way there. Yeah. Yeah. And I can get into that whenever you want. But,
Lisa Danylchuk 8:22
yeah, I mean, I am curious, because you've heard countless trauma therapists now talk about their early clinical errors. Yeah, let's hear yours.
Guy Macpherson 8:29
Well, it was you know, this is not unfamiliar, it was this idea I had of what helping was, was what was needed, you know, and surely this information that I had, I could utilize, you know, I could study and page 222 of Bessel Vander Kolk book or pat robertson's book or Kathy sills, but, of course, I can use that intervention when I'm seeing this client. And it was ridiculous. You know, it was ridiculous. And we had this assessment this for literally, it was a 40 page assessment that we had to deliver, and use with these these young kids to determine if they were experiencing early signs of psychosis. And we would often work with a another therapist. I know you try to do this in the most humane way possible. But it was it became very sterile. And I remember specifically one young girl I was working with at the time, and I think she was around 14 or 15. And I was leading the assessment and leading answers asking these questions. And it was it was ridiculous. She wasn't she was like, yeah, no, yeah, no, I don't know. And I was I was like, feeling to myself. This is how I felt I could connect with this person. But what was happening? I took this assessment, and it just like, put it down on the desk. And I was like, I think took my glasses off. And I was like, alright. And I just shifted right. And I said to her, I said, let me ask you something. Let's forget this right now. What is it that your parents out there in the waiting room need to hear? Your therapist needs to hear? Because this girl, as most clients, who came to that had been to umpteen therapists and NP programs, what is it, that they are not understanding that they're not getting? You know, it was a shift, and that whole state shift that dynamic and me putting that down, shifted the whole tenor of the conversation about and it allowed her open up. And it allowed me to see that, yes, I felt in my heart that I could connect with this person. And it wasn't through that assessment, you know, at around the same time, my mother died unexpectedly. And that whole kind of combination of experiences really couldn't force me to confront, what was I doing? Yeah, what am I doing? How am I connecting with these people? And then I had started doing the podcast, and hearing from these other therapists, which sharing their experiences, and it was all I thought it was going to be centered around Well, again, this technique and that technique, but it was their kind of stumbling early stumbling about allowing themselves to be themselves. Yeah, you know, and that was a huge learning point for me. And it opened up a whole new trajectory and direction for me and my work and the podcast.
Lisa Danylchuk 11:57
And to connect, right, I hear you really centered. That's it. The authenticity allows for the connection rather than modality or the assessment being holding,
Guy Macpherson 12:05
generally. And it was, for me, it was what was preventing me from that authenticity? And for me, it was this need to feel like I had an answer. Yeah, from a very early age, I thought I wasn't smart enough, you know, and it, well, I have a degree. And of course, I can know this, and this, and this, and this, and this, you know, and it all came from a good place and an honest place, but it was misguided. And so I love this idea of allowing ourselves to be our authentic selves, you know, this word authenticity we use so much. But there's so much behind that. And under that, and within that, and it oftentimes becomes very challenging for us to trust ourselves to be vulnerable to allow another person to see my flaws and my mistakes and my errors. And of course, within the clinical context, that's guided right by ethics and boundaries, of course. But there's so much fire there of, of connection, and and humaneness. And it's the, the antithesis of what somebody experiences who's been traumatized. interpersonally, right. They've experienced the antithesis of that.
Lisa Danylchuk 13:36
Oh, yeah, I have two thoughts. One of them is, have you ever had the experience, then where you recognize, oh, this is an authenticity, this connection, this closeness is so valuable. And then the other person's not ready for that, or it doesn't feel safe for them to connect? Have you ever had that, like, so how would you navigate if some, if you're saying, Okay, I'm going to put the assessment down, we're looking straight in the eyes. And yeah, that that totally works sometimes. And I think, especially when we're working with children and adolescents, and they're used to being in the system, and they're like, blah, blah, blah, this person doesn't care. And you put it down and you look them in the eye, or you shift your regard directly towards them in the moment and, and value them they go, Oh, this feels different. Like this isn't this isn't so systemic, this is actually a person in front of me. And what if you've had the experience of someone going whoa, back up, like, and particularly around maybe a trauma narrative or right, like, hey, too much too fast? Or, you know, I we just met and I'm not ready and how, how do you navigate that in terms of this rapport and connection that we know is so valuable?
Guy Macpherson 14:45
Right. Well, I think this is where experience comes in. I you know, I don't I want to be heard clearly. I don't want to give the indication or implication that I'm seeing you know, people need to just expose them to here I am Um, you know, it's not, it's, it's more about, and this is where experience and learning comes in for trauma therapists I mean, knowing when to step forward and when to step back. And that that requires listening and understanding and experience knowing when to share how much to share what to share, all right. But there's being able to, you know, for lack of a better word sense, where read the person who's in front of you, and understanding, again, when to step into that circle with them, and be guided by their movement, their progress, right, meeting them where they're at, in that sense, but as you said, you know, you know, wow, this is different. And this is a different experience. It could be, you know, to use a trauma word trauma treatment, where you know, titrating that, right? And seeing, allowing them to see that the person in front of you is not perfect, doesn't have all the answers, there are little things, right, little things that I think therapists can do and say, to test the waters, for example, even to say, you know, I don't have all the answers, right, you're the expert, for example, all those things, and to see how they bounce back, bounce off that person, and so forth. But the and a lot of people I think, have varying degrees of thoughts on this topic. You know, a lot of people think, well, the therapist should be the blank slate still. And that's whatever works for you. But for me, I don't know, it's, I think we need we've so value when people are out, share themselves when they show their vulnerability, you know, what does that mean? They're, they're empowered imperfections. You know, I think we walk around a lot of therapists do holding the therapy process like this. glass ball, yeah, you know, you're walking and Oh, my God, I can't break, I can't shift it, I can't hold, you know, it's inevitably going to break as opposed to this amazing hunk of clay. Right. So when you're walking, it's gonna get dented and marred and used and that there's a beauty in that. And I liked that analogy, because encountering someone and being willing to do that takes a certain amount of courage. Absolutely. For both parties.
Lisa Danylchuk 17:48
Yeah. And you can bump up against something and then bring attention to that area and intentionally reshape it, right? Like, that's the whole repair thing. You can go oops, like, that wasn't our wasn't my intention. That wasn't our intention. This isn't what we were expecting. And now let's work with it. Let's give it some care. Right. Okay, so just dented the edge of that. Can we can we give it what what do we want it to look like now? And what does it need? And, and those kinds of collaborative conversations, like I think a lot about a lot of the early community based therapy I did, where I was like, Oh, the ride in the car is gold, right? The basketball, the card game, these things are gold, they're so much better than having someone come and sit in your office. And I think when we're in that repair, sometimes we're in more of that parallel space of like, okay, how do how do we bring in, it might be really vulnerable, the thing that we're talking about, but we're also sort of working together instead of doing an intervention,
Guy Macpherson 18:42
right? And I totally did not get that. You know, when I first started, I remember my very one of my very first experiences, walked into my supervisors office, and I was so frustrated. And she was like, Oh, my God, what's wrong? And I said, you know, they're not listening to me. They're not listening to me. And she said, something I'll never forget. She said, she calmed me down. And she said, Let me tell you something. Let me ask you something. Why do you think they need to listen to you what makes you think they need to listen? And I was like, taken aback. I was like, What do you mean, I went to school and, and it was all in not about that. And I think this is what to me makes makes the therapeutic process so interesting, because on the one end, and difficult and challenging in it, and an an artful, is that the therapeutic process does require a lot of knowledge, and especially when you're talking about trauma, you have to have that and at the same time, right, there's this amazing humaneness that is almost demanded in the process. And I think a lot of therapists I've spoken with a lot of therapists. And I think I can safely say that a lot of therapy it gets in the way, but Well, well, well, I want to help. You're asking me to disclose where I've got to work on myself. That's a whole other thing. And I don't even get to know one of my guests said, you know, to even get to the point where you're working with someone, you've had to have done a lot of your own work. And it's not a matter of when you're going to be triggered. Or if you're going to be triggered. It's when, and hopefully you've done your own work, so that you can deal with that. And you're not dealing with your own stuff in who was I think it was Lisa forends. Who said, if you're dealing with your own stuff, when you're in the room with a client, you're in the wrong room. You need to be in
Lisa Danylchuk 20:53
therapy,
Unknown Speaker 20:54
right? Yeah.
Lisa Danylchuk 20:56
So yeah, so I'm curious, too. You've been in this world of trauma for a long time. When did you first hear about learn about work with be exposed to dissociation?
Guy Macpherson 21:09
Well, that's a good thing. That's a good question. I mean, I was thinking about that. And, you know, I heard about it in school, of course, but
Lisa Danylchuk 21:18
no, that's good. Because not everyone says that.
Guy Macpherson 21:20
Well, I did. Yeah, I didn't hear about it in school. And certainly, you know, when I was in school, I was, I had been going through sensorimotor psychotherapy training, which was really eye opening for me. But I didn't experience dissociation until one of my internships, and it was it was skipped and edited something else too. When I got divorced. I was, this is crazy. It was It has I'm not. I won't get too personal here. But it for me, it happened out of the blue. Right? And I was, was like, What the hell is going on here? I remember driving in the wake of this. And seeing myself out here, ya know, behind myself looking at myself driving and thinking, Okay, I'm driving. And this is how I know. That was. I was like, wow,
Lisa Danylchuk 22:33
it's happening to me, right? It's
Guy Macpherson 22:34
happening to me. Yeah. Yeah. It was so scary. Yeah. It was scary. Yeah.
Lisa Danylchuk 22:41
And even though you know about it, and you've worked with it, and you've done interviews about it, it's a different Oh, it's completely
Guy Macpherson 22:46
different. Yeah. It's completely different. And I think that's a good point, you know, having there's, it's one thing to have this, this knowledge, right. But it's another thing to have experienced something. Certainly we all we know that but when you when you experience that, like, Whoa, this is crazy. Am I going nuts? What is happening to me?
Lisa Danylchuk 23:12
And just all the information? I mean, all that information that gives you have, right? There's this process, and we can understand it, we can explain it. But there's also what you're describing is this meta process of how you respond to the dissociation Right? Or your experience of dissociation? What's your, what's your reaction to experiencing that? And that's a whole other layer, right? Oh, my God, what is this, this happening to me? I kind of know what this is. But it's still really scary. Right? Doesn't take it away. I mean, helps a lot of people to understand, but it doesn't take away the enormity of it.
Guy Macpherson 23:45
Yeah, I was really taken aback by that whole experience. You know, it's in someone said to me, it's funny, because I didn't put words to it. And till I was talking to someone, and I was telling them everything I was experiencing, like this kind of D realization. You know, this, this, this? What is happening to me now, who am I? Yeah, I'm no longer, you know, married. I don't have a partner. The life change. For one I didn't really realize, you know, people talk about divorce and oh, it's a it's a it's a traumatic thing. I didn't get that. When I was married. I you don't get it until you go through it. And similarly, I didn't realize that this how traumatic it had been for me is still is pretty much yeah, you know, someone pointed out, you know, Kai, you're going through trauma.
Lisa Danylchuk 24:47
And I was like, Yeah, right. And you're like, I have interviewed almost 800 people about that and I have all the skills and tools and yet applying them and figuring them out and navigating through it is still there. Very challenging, right? Totally, totally challenging helps to have the tools versus not and to have some understanding, but it's it's still an experience that you navigate through day by day.
Guy Macpherson 25:11
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I, you know, it's the thing that excites me about this whole topic is, you know, we talked about authenticity and vulnerability. And for me, those are crucial things and vital things for not just therapists, but for people. But I think why a lot of therapists get caught up in it is because it again, it requires a certain amount of looking at your past at your story at your history at the narrative, right. And that's not easy. It's not easy. At the same time, for me, it means that, you know, each person can value themselves who they are. And that's okay. In fact, that's what's almost expected in this,
Lisa Danylchuk 26:12
I'm just thinking about, right, we just had a little a little knock on the door, and I'm feeding my daughter. Now, for those who aren't watching on video, she's with us. So if you hear a little cooing in the background, that's what's happening. But I also remember Megan's IP and came on the podcast, season one, and she brought her, her son to, and I, I was like, Oh, you're gonna have him during the interview. And then I was like, Yeah, this is kind of awesome, though. Because this is like, who you are and how you are right now. And this is your family. And this is great. Bring it right. And, and he made a couple tiny noises throughout, but it's like, really enriched the conversation we were having. I mean, she had been through, she's been on the podcast twice, do both of you honorary devil podcasters on this podcast, but she was at the Boston Marathon finish line in 2013, when the bombs went off, and so she had really experienced a lot of PTSD and talks about just read a book about a poetry book about how healing part of it is how healing parenting has been for her right to like, just be in the moment with the kids and just and a little bit of what you're talking about just that connection, right? Just that presence, and connection and how healing that has been for her as a parent, who's recovering from, you know, long term, PTSD from that event, and you know, she's done EMDR and all the things and it's just like, you know, it sounded like a dream, but it didn't work in the way that I wanted to, but this on this ongoing, you know, being connected and caring for little humans, you know, and she expresses it really eloquently through her poetry too. But like, that's been something that's been really valuable. So I'm curious, too, if, you know, sometimes we talked about EMDR. And that's something we focused on this season, there's this too much too fast factor. And I'm wondering if you this is something you learned early on, or I've seen or, you know, sure, you've talked about on the podcast with so many different angles and interviews. But is that something you experienced personally, as a new clinician, just kind of diving into the modality and then going, Oh, wait, we just unpacked it, which?
Guy Macpherson 28:27
Yeah, I mean, big time? Of course, you know, it's really it stems from a couple of things me, for me, it stems from it has stemmed from this need to have an answer. Yeah, it provide an answer, and a need to help. And again, I think oftentimes, you know, in this field, we use these terms help, heal, fix, but they really need to be defined. And I think that's a really important thing is to understand why one gets into this field, you know, and hoping. So I remember, someone's one of my guests said to me, you have to understand that the client who's sitting in front of you has been on their healing journey, long before they walked into your office. You know, when it's this, oftentimes, therapists get in, they want to help, they want to heal, they want to fix they want to prevent other people from feeling the pain they did. Well, you know, there has to be an understanding of, that's great for you. But you know, it's understanding what that particular person in front of you how did they defined help? And that's a really serious question because a lot of damage can be done. Right if if the therapist is over eager and wanting or needing to that as was the case for me needing to show the how the answer? Yeah, no to fix the problem, right. And
Lisa Danylchuk 30:10
it's such a double edge because we're in this to fix the problem, right? Like, that's so many of us come, we'll understand and treat and then we go away. But I don't have control over that.
Guy Macpherson 30:23
I think a lot of people have differing opinions as to what the purpose is, you know, someone said to be, you know, your job is to be there and walk with that client through that journey. Your job is not to take away their pain. Yes. And I was like, Whoa, yeah, really? You know, it's their, how dare you? She said this to me. How dare you think it's your job? And she was not talking to me specifically, but rhetorically, like, how dare you think it's your job to take away their pain? This is their journey. And it's a whole other way of looking at this process, where the, the therapist now becomes walking alongside, yes, the client, as opposed to this type of relationship where there is an inherent and look built into the therapy therapeutic relationship, there is an inherent imbalance. Yeah, clients coming to the therapist who has the knowledge, right. So it's kind of in a skew like that. And I think one of the jobs for the therapist is to balance that out, and create this kind of environment where the therapist doesn't present him or herself as necessarily having the right answer, but allowing that client to feel like the they have the answers, you know, and I
Lisa Danylchuk 31:56
think there are plenty of folks who want that, that type of authority. And I think culturally, too, there's differences, right, or some people just like, No, I want the professional and I want the authority, and I want to be fixed and, and that can be a challenging arc of treatment, so to speak, or of therapy, to go through, you know, I'm, I'm not going to take your pain away, I'm not, that's not my role. I'm going to go through this with you, and I'm going to share the tools and work and we can, you know, try these modalities. And we can do these things. But but that agency piece, and that choice piece, and that this is your life and your your narrative and your choice, like coming back to that I think it goes against sometimes larger cultures and systems that we're existing within. And so it can be a big challenge to sort of thread that through when people are coming with different expectations or hopes. And, and it's interesting, I mean, I think there are circumstances where someone can go for a short series of EMDR therapy and feel like, oh, that took my pain away. And I feel so much better. And but I think the more complex we get, which we just kind of always human beings, the more complex the trauma, the more complex the narrative. And you know, the the less I want to say the less realistic that is.
Guy Macpherson 33:19
Yeah, well, I think you're bringing up a really key piece here, which is the piece of empowerment, empowering, you know, and someone who has been traumatized, as it certainly is, is experienced interpersonal trauma, you know, that that agency, as you said, you know, that empowerment that self trust has been ripped away from them. Yeah. And to then come into a situation or an environment where there's someone saying to them, you have the what I have, the answer is no, I don't or you can do this whatnot, you're empowered. No, but that peace, you know, being able to present something to someone such that they feel empowered. That's the key piece there, you know, and it's a new kind of relationship for a lot of people who've been people who've experienced ongoing trauma. They've lost that self trust, they've lost that agency, which is so cool. I mean, to get back my God.
Lisa Danylchuk 34:27
Yeah. It's significant. It's life altering. Right. It's life altering now. So we talked a little bit about mistakes, people are bound to make mistakes in this work from every angle. Can you talk about a time you recovered from a mistake or something you learned or took away from what felt like initially maybe a big blunder?
Guy Macpherson 34:47
Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, it's funny, I, when I asked, I've asked people that and they're like, Well, I don't make any mistakes. Or, you know, I mean, I think how mistakes are treated is key. And in the moment, you know, and being willing to utilize that as an opportunity for growth and introspection, with with the client is crucial. For me, you know, I talked before about that time when I put down that assessment. And I also mentioned, you know, the time of my mother's death. And I remember when, around that time, this is kind of just a little little later, I was in session with a client, and they were talking about an experience they had with a relative dying. And I remember, distinctly be triggered in that moment. And, like a whole it was a whole body thing. Where I was like, I can't do this. Yeah, not ready to do this. Yeah. And I, I remember, I stepped back from from work at that point. You know, like, in that mode, I had never experienced a full body triggering like that.
Lisa Danylchuk 36:10
You were aware of it. And you listened to it. I was so important. Yeah. Yeah.
Guy Macpherson 36:15
And I had to. And it was interesting, because that experience really made me reflect on not just the work of therapy. But what my role was an admirer. And I think maybe each of us have have slightly different roles within this or different emphases number. For me, it's it's being able to connect when we say that, what does that mean, share that experience, the human experience. And it's funny, because, in a way, I thought to myself, Okay, so what's so hard about that? Yeah, that seems so easy. When it's not, because so much of the stuff gets in our way.
Lisa Danylchuk 37:06
And what I love about the example you just gave is, it was really about you stepping back and taking care of yourself. It wasn't, let me get in here and fix this mistake. I mean, I was thinking of like, you know, words, I'll say sometimes like, Well, that wasn't helpful. Was it? Like, there are moments where you can do a repair on the fly? But there's also much bigger context of, can I facilitate this right now? Can I be with this person in their experience, and and when it does initiate a full body trigger? Well, then it is time to reevaluate and assess and perhaps step back and take care of yourself. Because if you just plow ahead, or if you buy into some shaming narrative that says, you need to be able to do it or whatever, that doesn't serve anyone, right, it's giving you and a trigger fast, and it's leaving the client with a therapist who's triggered all over the place. And then that kind of brings me back to that quote, you mentioned earlier of like, you're in the wrong room.
Guy Macpherson 38:05
Right? Yeah.
Lisa Danylchuk 38:08
So you also mentioned your own personal journey, and I'm curious, what's been healing and helping you, right? We're using those words healing and helping and you've got all this knowledge and wisdom, you get this amazing community, you could like, call any trauma therapist throughout the world, and have a conversation with them at any point in time. What's what's feeling most supportive for you?
Guy Macpherson 38:29
You know, that? That's a good question. I love having exchanges like this, you know, and talking to people who are willing to share of themselves. And I think that's what really drives me in the work I do. I mean, it's so that's healing for me, talking to people who've gone through their own trauma, journey, their own healing journey, continuing to do that, because I've asked myself, Why am I continuing to do this? But I get so much down on that, you know, I get so much from digging into people and finding out what, what, what drives them. And it all comes down to this willingness to share one's heart, one's one soul, you know, without the BS, filters, you know, getting that out and just allowing ourselves to have a conversation where we're willing to expose ourselves to a certain degree. Yeah, that to me is healing that connection.
Lisa Danylchuk 39:50
It's truth to there's an elegant truth there. Yes, of course. I think there's a time and a place for like you said ethics and boundaries and you know, if you walk into there This office in the therapist starts spilling all of their things on you, like, try and find a new therapist. Like, that's not what we're looking for. But you there is like, you know, with anything kind of extremes where you can be, you can walk into a therapists office and feel like they're a robot. And that's, you know, maybe the opposite of them telling you their life story. And so in the middle somewhere, there's this is a human being who is navigating their lives and dealing with their own stuff as it comes up in a way that I think makes it easier to be around someone like if someone is dealing with what, and they're aware of what they're going through, and are getting support and help. Then it's like, oh, I can be around this person, because they're not a trigger faster. They're aware when they trigger us, right? I think that level of connection and relationship and honesty is maybe unfortunately rare in the world that we have today. I think it's changing people are therapies more normalized, and people are self reflective. And there's a lot of amazing people in the world. And there's a lot of great healers in the world,
Guy Macpherson 41:04
of course. And I think, you know, when we're talking about therapy, therapy, we have certain criteria. And when we're talking about general generally speaking, how we are with the people around us, it's different to but the thread the commonality there is this this word from me, which is humaneness, you know, and again, in the therapeutic environment, there are ethics, guidelines, boundaries, of course, but what really is healing for me, you know, when we encounter someone, I guess not everybody, but generally speaking, I think when we encounter some encounter someone, pocket someone see someone, here's someone who we can tell, is being themselves, right, they have this sense of genuineness about them, they're exuding this sense this sentiment, we're drawn to that. Yeah, we're drawn to that. I know I am. Because it allows is kind of inviting us to say chi, where is that in you? Why are you not? What are you afraid of? Yeah, what are you afraid of? And it's not so much. I was not just what someone else is gonna think. But what we're gonna think about ourselves to know, you know, but to me, the excitement there is that and I think, I think it's exciting for therapists to because they can be themselves, they don't have to be someone else's idea, or a deal of what a therapist needs to be,
Lisa Danylchuk 42:52
you know, right, let's just makes me think too, that no one person is going to be right for everyone. And all of us just being ourselves and our own flavor, allow for that unique connection of, you know, and degree variables that we're not aware of, and unconscious bias and all these things to play their role and to find somewhere where we can feel more, more comfort and more support and be able to have someone with us to navigate through the hard things in life.
Guy Macpherson 43:19
Yep. There's a quote, by Jean gendlin, in his book, The primacy of human experience, really has inspired me and really guided the work I've been doing these last few years. And he, he says, the essence of working with another person is to be present as a living being. And that's lucky because if we had to be smart, or good or mature or wise, then we would probably be in trouble. But what matters is that that what matters is to be human being with another human being, to recognize the other person as another being in there. And I love that because it's it sounds so simple, right? And it is, but it's not easy to do. But it's It's magical. And it's healing.
Lisa Danylchuk 44:14
Yeah. I love it. And I love it because I wanted to ask you your book and your quote, like you ask all your guests and so thank you for sharing that.
Guy Macpherson 44:22
Yeah, you're welcome.
Lisa Danylchuk 44:23
So what's coming up next for you? Are you going in the direction of training more podcasters? Should Isabella sign up for your podcast training? Got a lot to say on the mic.
Guy Macpherson 44:37
Well, it's funny, you should ask. I'm starting another podcast.
Lisa Danylchuk 44:44
Tell us all about it. Here. First,
Guy Macpherson 44:47
I'm starting an additional podcast and it's called books, read, thrive. And it's about it's for a more general audience, and it's about the books. So I'm gonna invite on authors To written books that help us thrive and heal and grow. So it's not just about trauma. I just want to connect more and reach out to a kind of a broader audience and have conversations about personal growth and healing and thriving. Yeah, mainly getting a lot of people on the podcast who had books and other than I thought, this might be a really cool thing to do. This is what I do, you know, and like, I can do this. So, yeah, so I'm really excited about it. And that's gonna, just in the planning, well, I'm more than planning. I'm recording the trailer and getting it out there. So yeah,
Lisa Danylchuk 45:45
I can't wait. Are you gonna keep the trauma therapist? Podcast going? Are you gonna keep doing that? You're adding to it. I love it. Amazing. All right, I'm sure and find that whenever they get their podcast wherever download. Yeah.
Guy Macpherson 45:58
I've also just been thinking about where I'm going with the work I do. And yeah, I don't know. Yeah. So 10 o'clock. Hey, no. Yeah, but I, you know, to get back to your question about what's healing. It's that thing that keeps me going. Yeah, that that thing, that essence keeps me going.
Lisa Danylchuk 46:23
Yeah. And is there anything else that brings you hope?
Guy Macpherson 46:26
You know, I have a real strong belief and faith in connection with people. I think people want to connect and respond to connection, even though it can be really hard. For a lot of us. That gives me a lot of hope.
Lisa Danylchuk 46:47
Yeah. Of connection. How can people best connect with you get on your mailing list to hear about the new podcast? What,
Guy Macpherson 46:55
just by going to the trauma therapist, project.com or the trauma therapists podcast.com They can learn about what I'm doing there.
Lisa Danylchuk 47:03
I love it. Yeah, thank you so much for coming back on the show, guys.
Guy Macpherson 47:07
Thank you so much for having me back. I appreciate the work you're doing. It's awesome.
Lisa Danylchuk 47:11
Yeah. And it's great to hear from you. And I'm really looking forward to listening to your podcast and sharing that and yeah, thanks for everything you've done. It's great to connect and, you know, one day at a time, right parenting, or divorce being human in the world, one day at a time. Appreciate a Lisa, thank you. Thanks so much for listening. My hope is that you walk away from these episodes feeling supported, and like you have a place to come to find the hope and inspiration you need to take your next small step forward. For more information and resources, please visit my website how we can heal.com There you'll find tons of helpful resources and the full transcript of each show. You can also click the podcast menu to submit requests for upcoming topics and guests. I look forward to hearing your ideas
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
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