Today on the How We Can Heal Podcast, Lisa Danylchuk chats with New York State Licensed Psychologist, Professor, Author (and more) Sheldon Itzkowitz. The pair go in-depth on Dissociation, Sheldon’s work with DID patients and discrimination, understanding evil, and more. Tune in to keep talking about how we can heal.
Listen on Apple | Spotify | Google | Amazon
Watch on YouTube:
About Shelly Itzkowitz:
Dr. Sheldon Itzkowitz is a New York State Licensed Psychologist in full-time private practice on Manhattan’s upper west side. He has been a practicing psychologist for over 40 years during which time he has accumulated experience in both inpatient and private practice settings.
He received his Ph.D. in Psychology from Yeshiva University in 1979, and in 1986 he was awarded the Certificate of Specialization in Psychotherapy and Psychoanalysis upon being graduated from The New York University Postdoctoral Program in Psychotherapy and Psychoanalysis.
Currently, Dr. Itzkowitz is an Adjunct Clinical Associate Professor of Psychology and Clinical Consultant at the NYU Postdoctoral Program in Psychotherapy & Psychoanalysis, Guest Faculty, the Eating Disorders, Compulsions, and Addictions Program of The William Alanson White Institute, and on the teaching and supervisory faculty of the National Institute for the Psychotherapies Training Program in Psychoanalysis and the Manhattan Institute for Psychoanalysis, TraumaTreatment Program. He is a Fellow of the International Society for the Study of Trauma & Dissociation, an Honorary Member of the William Alanson White Society and a former President of the Division of Psychoanalysis of the New York State Psychological Association.
His private practice activities include working with patients in individual, intensive psychotherapy and psychoanalysis, and working with couples. In addition to treating patients, he provides individual and group consultation/supervision and study groups to other mental health providers.
Dr. Itzkowitz’s clinical interests include working with trauma, including adult survivors of childhood sexual abuse and people who struggle with dissociative disorders. He is also interested in the crisis of mid-life in men, and helping couples work through relational difficulties including communication problems and relationship betrayal.
In addition to his clinical work Dr. Itzkowitz has presented extensively on working with trauma and dissociation both nationally and internationally.
He is the author of several publications including co-editing a new book with Elizabeth F. Howell Ph.D., “Psychoanalysts, Psychologists & Psychiatrists Discuss Psychopathy and Human Evil, published by Routledge, (November 2019).
Outline of the episode:
- [04:21] How Dr. Itzkowitz chose his career in Psychology
- [12:12] We’re not Freud bashing, but…
- [26:40] Working with DID patients and why it’s meaningful
- [37:42] The awful treatment of DID patients and Dr. Itzkowitz’s “why”
- [44:46] Where to go to start learning about Dissociation
- [49:46] Do you answer this common therapist question correctly?
- [57:12] Identifying your different “Self States”
- [1:05:24] Understanding evil in people
- [1:15:34] What’s giving Dr. Itzkowitz hope right now
Resources:
Website: https://www.sheldonitzkowitzphd.com/
Book: Psychoanalysts, Psychologists and Psychiatrists Discuss Psychopathy and Human Evil
ISSTD: ISSTD - International Society for the Study of Trauma & Dissociation
Full Transcript:
Shelly Itzkowitz 0:03
Part of why I wanted to teach is because I met with a lot of scorn in my early work was my first DID patient. And so did she. Her history was abominable. And the rejection and dehumanization that she experienced at the hands of hospital staff, when she was admitted to hospitals was just awful.
Lisa Danylchuk 0:44
Welcome back to Season Two of the How We Can Heal podcast. I so enjoyed sharing season one with you. And we have some incredible guests coming on for season two. I created this podcast because the hard times seem to just keep on coming these days. These guests and I have committed our lives to healing work, and to fostering health and joy in the world, even as we work through the impacts of trauma and face deep challenges. So let's dive in. And let's all keep talking about how we can heal. Our guest today is Dr. Shelly Itzkowitz. Doctor it's good to the New York State licensed Psychologist in full time private practice on Manhattan's Upper West Side. He's been a practicing Psychologist for over 40 years, during which time he's accumulated experience in both inpatient and private practice settings. He received his PhD in Psychology from Yeshiva University in 1979. And in 1986, he was awarded the certificate of specialization in psychotherapy and psychoanalysis. Upon graduating from the NYU postdoctoral program and psychotherapy and psychoanalysis, where he now serves as an adjunct clinical associate professor of psychology, as well as a clinical consultant. He's also guest faculty for the William Allanson White Institute. And he's part of the teaching and supervisory faculty of the Manhattan Institute for psychoanalysis in their trauma treatment program. He's a fellow of the International Society for the Study of trauma and dissociation, and a former president of the division of psychoanalysis of the New York State Psychological Association. His clinical interests include working with trauma, including adult survivors of childhood sexual abuse, and people who struggle with dissociative disorders. In addition to his clinical work, Dr. Isko. It presents internationally on working with trauma and dissociation and he's a wonderful teacher. He's the author of several publications, including co editing a new book with Elizabeth Howell PhD. The book is entitled, Psychoanalysts, Psychologists and Psychiatrists Discuss Psychopathy, and Human Evil that was published by Rutledge in November of 2019. Shelly and I initially connected through our service on the board of the ISSTD, I was initially intimidated by his his expertise and experience I could barely get through this whole introduction, because there's so many psychological titles in here. But immediately I found him to be warm, open, compassionate and hilarious. We're lucky to have him on the ICD board and to have him here as a guest on the how we can heal podcast. Let's welcome Shelley to the show
Lisa Danylchuk 3:19
Welcome Shelley its goods to the how we can heal podcast and super happy to have you here today.
Shelly Itzkowitz 3:25
Thank you so much for inviting me.
Lisa Danylchuk 3:28
I know if you're gonna hear about Bhumi is also very excited. Today. Second with the notion,
Shelly Itzkowitz 3:34
Archie might show up. We'll see what happens.
Lisa Danylchuk 3:37
All right. Sounds good. And you're out in New York? Yes.
Shelly Itzkowitz 3:40
Yes. Not currently. But yes. I live in work in New York. And in the city. Yeah. You Manhattan.
Lisa Danylchuk 3:48
Yes. Yeah, I'll be going out there soon. I'm excited. So I want to explore I know that you have just this rich experience in dissociation and you know, deep psychological work, psychoanalysis, all of that. So we've got some time to dig into some of that today. But I'd love to hear first from you. How did you get into this field? What caused you to become a psychologist to become a psychoanalyst? Were there some of those like early moments that stand out to you in terms of those the choice to come into this field?
Shelly Itzkowitz 4:21
So to become a psychologist, that's fascinating question. Without taking up too much time, there was a point in time where I had a career on Wall Street.
Lisa Danylchuk 4:33
I did not know that.
Shelly Itzkowitz 4:35
And it was going in in a very, very positive direction. And I was 18, 19 years old and I was working on the floor of the American Stock Exchange which no longer exists. And I got a friend of mine a summer job and he was going to dental school. And the the ironic thing is, with his being there, I got to see what I was doing through his eyes. And I didn't like it.
Lisa Danylchuk 5:15
Interesting
Shelly Itzkowitz 5:16
it really kind of brought a focus on what I was doing was helping people make lots of money. And many of the people I was working with and four would would be canceled today. Because their racism, homophobia, sexism. anti semitism is very prevalent. At least that was my experience, personal experience. And at the same time, I took a course in abnormal psychology, which, which folks, it was actually Introductory Psychology, I'm sorry. And it focused on the psychoanalytic and psychodynamic aspects of being a psychologist. And it just opened, opened me up. Literally, at the end of the semester, I went into therapy, my first therapy. And, and I decided I wanted to get back to once we get back to the world. This has also happened in the context of the Vietnam War. Yeah, some of my friends were coming back from the Vietnam War. extremely disturbed. Yes. PTSD. I didn't know what it was then. But I certainly didn't know what it is now. And I wanted to do something useful.
Lisa Danylchuk 7:01
Yeah. So that first course that introductory course was a really powerful pivot for you. And it's interesting because you even in a course, a more advanced course on psychology these days, not a lot of folks get exposure to psychoanalysis and psychodynamic training. So it's interesting that you had that part of it sounds like timing, right? You had that in your, in your introduction? What was it about that approach that stood out to you at the time?
Shelly Itzkowitz 7:35
It, it helped understand helped me understand how things that happened in one's life shaped your personality shape your character. And it it helped me look, look inward. And understand some of the things that had happened in my life in my childhood growing up. And it gave it added tremendous meaning to me. And I thought, what a wonderful opportunity, what a wonderful experience to be able to share this with other people.
Lisa Danylchuk 8:18
Especially when you contrast that to being you know, in the New York Stock Exchange, the American Stock Exchange, being on the floor there like that. I just think of that environment. And I haven't personally been in an environment like that, but from what I've seen on TV, it's it's it's busy. It's active. It's not, it's not necessarily reflective place, right?
Shelly Itzkowitz 8:39
Yeah. No, it's not, not for place for self reflection. You get to give you an a little example. I happen to be one of the half a million people that were at Woodstock. Nice. And I came back to work after the weekend, and told my boss and he threw me out of work.
Lisa Danylchuk 9:03
He threw you out for going to a concert date. Yeah. Why?
Shelly Itzkowitz 9:10
I was part of the I guess, the hippie generation, that wasn't the hippie.
Lisa Danylchuk 9:15
Oh, judgment so much. Time, it's not like you did it while you were working?
Shelly Itzkowitz 9:21
Doesn't matter. What didn't matter to him.
Lisa Danylchuk 9:26
Wow, that is fascinating. So there was really this sense of, I mean, in addition to your interest in psychology, and that being an opening to reflect on yourself and connect with yourself, there was also this, you can't be who you are, in this work environment, which I think a lot of people struggle with even to this day, you know, we talk about bifurcated or try for cated identity right like not even in the state of dissociation but just in terms of this is who I have to be at work. This is how I have to be to fit into a certain culture and you are really experiencing that. Like I have to either hide or not be who I am or be punished for going to a concert in order to work in this environment.
Shelly Itzkowitz 10:05
Erase myself essentially. Yeah.
Lisa Danylchuk 10:10
Which I mean, we can also sort of step back and reflect on in terms of your culture and in terms of how important it is for you to be able to be who you are in the world, right?
Shelly Itzkowitz 10:20
Yep. So that was that was how I got into psychology.
Lisa Danylchuk 10:26
Yeah. And did it just sort of take off from there and you went into school and got trained and never looked back, or were there any other moments,
Shelly Itzkowitz 10:37
What my my love and my interest was to become a psychoanalyst. That was what was most important to me. I went to school, went to graduate school, did my clinical psychology internship, got a job, got my degree, worked at work at hospitals for 20 years on inpatient service, some of that 20 years was was part time work.
Lisa Danylchuk 11:12
That's a long time to be, you know, on the unit to be doing that, really. I think it's really intense work. And I love that you describe just this passion for psychoanalytic work. Because I feel like when I when I think of psychoanalysis these days, one of the first things that comes to mind is, well, obviously people like you and Elizabeth Howell, and you know, you've written books with her and people who are doing really amazing work. But I also think of like, the cartoons that come out about therapy are often very, like stereotypical psychoanalysis, right? Like someone's lying on a couch, and there's no eye contact and all these things. And so I'm curious what psychoanalysis means to you, and how you would sort of contrast, your embodied experience of it your training, the work you do to some of those stereotypes that I think we still see, like some of the most popular psychology cartoons are riffing something about Freud. Right?
Shelly Itzkowitz 12:12
Right, right. I was, I was very taken by Freud and his work. To the extent that I wish it was taught to me in college. But it felt to me like it didn't emphasize the real experience of what happens in in the interpersonal environment, and in the culture. And so my first analyst was an interpersonal list. And when I went to psychoanalytic training at NYU postdoc, I studied into personal psychoanalysis. And that was a big switch from Freud. It was something that evolved in the 1930s 1940s with Harry stack Sullivan. Eric, from Karen Horni, Clara Thompson. And the shift of focus was on what goes on between people, what happens when people matters? Yes. And, and that's what really hooked me. Yeah, that's, that's what I was most most interested in.
Lisa Danylchuk 13:33
That's a big shift, too, because I think a lot of that sort of cartoony image that I get, is playing off of how, you know, avoiding eye contact or looking different ways. And like not having that attachment and relational piece. And it's interesting, we actually share, I didn't want to study street psychology, because as you know, my mother and also my father are licensed mental health professionals. But I studied interpersonal communications, that was a so passionate about it, and I was like, Oh, this, this has energy, this has something in it. You know, I don't necessarily need to hear about the science experiments done on rats again. I really want to study and unpack this connection. So it sounds like that's what really drew you in which I think a lot of people who who maybe haven't studied much psychoanalysis or have just kind of got an outline of Freud. They'd be surprised by that, right that you were drawn to the psychodynamic work into psychoanalysis, because of the relational piece, right?
Shelly Itzkowitz 14:35
Right. I don't want to I don't want to sound Freud bashing. Freud has his place. And his place was in a particular genre particular time. When he was practicing, I think the microscope had recently been invented. And, and the idea that one could observe what's happening in your subject. act like whatever is on the slides, that, that the observer doesn't have an impact on what's being observed. And so it's that fit with his idea that the analyst sits behind the patient. And the ideas end, he or she interprets into the patient. But he's really outside of or she's outside of the field, the analytic field. So, law came more to Heisenberg, with, he developed his uncertainty principle, where you if you observe something, you change it, yep. And so into personal psychoanalysis kind of took some of that not, not all of it. And, and interpersonal psychoanalysis rejected the, the requirement of the use of the couch. So face to face treatment was really acceptable. You didn't have to come in four or five times a week. And the essence of psychoanalysis, for the interpersonal, this was the analysis, the transference, the interpretation, and the interpretation of dreams.
Lisa Danylchuk 16:19
Yeah. And the dream piece makes me think of Carl Jung. And actually, there's a quote that I love that I believe comes from Jung, the meeting of truth of two personalities, like the meaning of two substances, when they both meet, they're both transformed, right? Just like It's like in chemistry, right you to put put two things together, you put hydrogen and oxygen, the right amount oxygen together, and you got water, you put two people together, and they're both impacted by that. And so that sounds like a big shift as you move to the interpersonal focus in psychoanalysis. It's actually honoring and folding in the centrality of the relationship, which I mean, as we know, today, whatever modality or technique or whatever you got going on the relationship scientifically, it comes back to relationship. Yeah, that this is the most important thing. And I know that's hard for us as scientists, because we're like, what I want to measure every bit of it, but how do you measure the interaction of two people, right is never going to be the same.
Shelly Itzkowitz 17:22
Right? Each each analytic pair of therapeutic pair is unique.
Lisa Danylchuk 17:29
Yes, and each therapist is even unique, right? As I interviewed my mom on this podcast, and she had a teacher who early on said, had an example and had the whole class go around and say, Well, what would you do? What would you say? What what was? What do you how do you respond to the statement that the client came in with? And everyone had a different answer, and everyone wanted to have the right answer? At the end, the professor said, you're all right. You all just picked up on whatever you were hearing, and were curious and sort of leaned into the relationship. And so it's not that there's this recipe, which I think we want, sometimes we feel safer, easier to just like, have some evidence based measured technology that'll tell us what to do. But, you know, there's, I've found as a therapist, really leaning on my intuition of like, I don't know why I'm thinking about this, but I feel like it's important to verbalize, like, those moments become more powerful than, you know, this makes me think of a technique
Shelly Itzkowitz 18:30
that really makes it relational experience when you when you do that. Yeah. Interpersonal psychoanalysis was another version of like a one person model of mind. Okay, right. And it was the work of Steve Mitchell and Jay Greenberg, and among other people who, who came up with the idea that it could divide the psychoanalytic world into the drive structure model, which would be Freud and the ego psychologists, and the relational structure model, which include the British object relations people and the interpersonal lists. And then Jessica Benjamin started to write about intersubjectivity. So intersubjectivity is really the underpinning of relational psychoanalysis is the ability for each member of the dyad to look at the world through each other's eyes and be able to be interested in the for the analyst, a therapist doesn't just have to be an analyst, for the therapist to want to know what her impact is on the patient. That then you'll you uncover how the patient under is understanding and integrating who you are and what's happening between the two of you.
Lisa Danylchuk 20:01
So there's that meta element of we're going to be in the relationship, but we're also going to reflect on the relationship that we're in and have the opportunity to explore it.
Shelly Itzkowitz 20:11
And we create something new, don't have been talked about the field theory. And Donald Stern writes of has written a lot about field theory, from an interpersonal psychoanalytic perspective. That we each bring our own experience, our parents or siblings or grandparents, the world we grew up in, we each bring that into the room. And as we interact, we create, like a third experience a shared experience.
Lisa Danylchuk 20:42
Yes. So how do you you're still doing clinical work? One on One work? Well, yeah. How do you find that showing up in your work? And how has maybe the way that you address that to people? And third, you know, element that that is evoked from the relationship with that third world? How has? How is the way you address that change over time? Do you feel like you've gotten better at sort of trying to name this, this new world we're creating together or trying to understand it or just step into it faster? So anything you notice there,
Shelly Itzkowitz 21:24
It's much easier to hide? When, when you keep yourself out of the relationship? Or you, you you make an assumption that your presence has minimal impact on the person you're working with. Yes, you really put yourself out there when you inquire what's happening between us, or, you know, I just have this, this strange thought just popped into my mind, or a song just popped into my mind. And then you ask the person you're working with? What do you think about that? What? What how do you how do you understand that? What's your take on? Yes, and and you share your own take on it and try to make, try and make sense and understanding and how it, how it fits the relationship and how it fits in the patient's the person's life. Now,
Lisa Danylchuk 22:23
What I love about that, and I find myself asking these types of questions often too, is like, well, this is what's landing for me, how does it land for you? And I think we often, you know, especially in like a really busy job, like you were describing earlier, or just sort of the faster pace of American culture in general. We don't always have that kind of space in conversation to say, this is how I'm hearing this, how is it and being able to compare and contrast? Okay, this sounds landing in my world, how does it land in yours? And I find that that question brings up so much valuable feedback. And it's different from, oh, I'm the psychoanalyst, or I'm the therapist, and I'm going to tell you, right, I'm going to tell you what that means or what that symbolizes. But if I say, when I hear that, I think of this, and then the person can respond with me too, or, no, it's the opposite. Right? And you can really start to uncover they're not just the meaning of whatever this thing is you're discussing, but also kind of the contrast between the two worlds and create a world where it's a shared space where it's safe to also disagree, right, and have different experiences. And, and to share those with each other.
Shelly Itzkowitz 23:39
The ability to, to disagree and remain connected. is the essence of the work. Yes, the ability to to, to even make mistakes. And be able to say, you know what, I was wrong. I'm sorry. Yes. That offers specially the patients that that we were the traumatized patients an opportunity for a new kind of experience where all hell was vetted as visited upon their minds and bodies without anybody thinking about what they're doing to these children. Right. And to be to hear someone say, I'm sorry, I see I hurt your feelings. Yes. Or I wasn't your right. I didn't understand you. That opens a door to it. For I think our patients that unique kind of self other experience. Yes.
Lisa Danylchuk 24:47
And that just to me is like such amazing human skills to you know, whether your therapist or not to be able to say, I'm sorry to be able to say, I misunderstood or we disagree, but we can stay connected, like all of that feels like amazing skills for any human being to have. But they become, you know, almost under a magnifying glass. When you're in a therapeutic setting, and you really see you can kind of slow things down and see the impact of of some of these things that we might think of, as, you know, faster interactions. Oh, I messed up, I apologize. But in the context of your life, in the context of what you're here to work with, that can be really profound.
Shelly Itzkowitz 25:32
Right, and interacting in that way. Really recognizes the person you're working with, as a legitimate subjective other legitimate subjective human being, who is deserving of recognition and respect. Yes. And, and that, isn't that the key to what we do with people who suffer with the it? Yeah, bring that in the relationship with each and every one of their parts.
Lisa Danylchuk 26:10
Yes. And which also makes me think of Donna Hicks work and dignity and bringing that in in terms of conflict resolution between parts. So we're starting to talk about dissociation. And I'm curious for you, when did that become a part of your world? Because most people I know, even today, don't get training on complex trauma and dissociation until after school? Like maybe there's a couple of programs that have a little bit about it, but but we learn kind of on the fly. So how did you first learn about about dissociation?
Shelly Itzkowitz 26:40
Well, I didn't even recognize that it was something that was part of my family life, my early family life. Wow. And my first analyst, in retrospect, I don't think he really got the time. So I was really not there in session. It was quite scary. So just a quick little story. When I was in my junior year in college, we were studying abnormal psychology. And it was the textbook was the abnormal personality by Robert White was great textbook. They mentioned multiple personality disorder, which completely fascinated me, but they said it only happens a few times a century. It's very rare. Yeah.
Lisa Danylchuk 27:34
My face freezes.
Shelly Itzkowitz 27:37
So that was in the early 1970s. So fast forward to 1990 to 1993. I was a supervising psychologist on an inpatient service, supervising psychology interns and psychiatric residents. And the unit chief comes up to me and says, you know, I have an interesting patient, I think you might like to see her privately. I said, Oh, what makes you think that? He says, Well, she has multiple personality disorder. And so I thought, Wow, I'm gonna get the opportunity for a once in a century experience. Yeah. Little did I know.
Lisa Danylchuk 28:21
You know, you'd be filling your entire caseload for your entire career.
Shelly Itzkowitz 28:25
I had no idea that way that would lead me. And that was, I think, the single most meaningful experience I've had in my professional career, working with DID patients. Absolutely.
Lisa Danylchuk 28:42
What makes it meaningful for you?
Shelly Itzkowitz 28:46
The suffering the suffering, the person having been so badly, deeply abused and hurt, is still willing to risk exposing herself. By that I mean, trusting in another person, desperately seeking help. And interacting with parts. It's, it was astonishing. It's not something I had ever, ever seen or known. Never, never studied that. And real change is possible. To to be something, something I have added to my meditation to be a vessel for healing. So it's such a concrete experience to be to be that with someone To be able to be present to be able to, to, to help to help heal. Yeah.
Lisa Danylchuk 30:09
I think folks listening might be more familiar. I mean, some people are definitely familiar with dissociation and what that means, but might be more familiar with just complex trauma, right? trauma that happens as you're in a repeated way or developmental trauma that happens as you're, as you're growing and developing. And so I'm thinking about thinking about a couple of things as you're talking. And one of them is, when you talk about that depth of suffering, right, it's, it's such a challenge and a privilege at the same time to sit with that. And then when you talk about being a vessel of healing, and I kind of think about vicarious trauma and burnout, and how people really struggle, as therapists, especially in the last few years to kind of carry, carry the healing or have that, that sense that that things can move forward and be okay, but when you're in the face of that depth of suffering, and there's that vulnerability, and that, that trust or that ask for help, and you're able to be a part of a healing experience with that person, like that can be just so profound. And I contrast that to what you were talking about earlier of, okay, I made some people some money, and probably some people who aren't going to really treat other people very well, right, and how that feels, you know, I guess, ethically or in your heart, versus how it feels in your body and in your heart to know, this is a person who has been significantly harmed and mistreated. And I can be a part of their journey and a part of the the healing, they're like, that's just such a contrast. Yes,
Shelly Itzkowitz 31:45
Yes. And it's not that you don't have that kind of experience with somebody who is doesn't have PTSD, or doesn't doesn't have dissociative identity disorder. But the experience is very different. Because it's bringing a history that been frozen in time or encased in a dissociated part. It's bringing that part into the room, it's palpable, and you're you're with your, you're not just hearing about it, you're you're living it with the person.
Lisa Danylchuk 32:26
So you're really a part of that, that healing experience. And I find for a lot of folks, I don't know if that's true for you, I'm kind of gathering perhaps it is, but that's the thing that keeps you going, right? It's not hearing about all the horrific stuff that is hard, that is challenging. But when you're a part of, of something that feels like it shifts, and, and something frozen in time, can kind of resolve or integrate or release, depending on the experience, like that's it, there's something really powerful in that very powerful. So you went from a job opportunity that maybe was lucrative, but felt sort of hollow to something that's very interpersonally rich, and I would say even even humanitarian, very meaningful. So what then calls you to teach about dissociation.
Shelly Itzkowitz 33:23
One of those experiences they had early on, I did not know about ISS TD in the early 1990s. And I was lost. And when I started working with this, my first di D patient, I was already a supervisor at a psychoanalytic Institute I've been working for many years in the field and I'd never felt so lost and frightened as as that as that. And I sought out some help and supervision but I didn't know anyone who believed in DID. But then, I guess it was called multiple personality disorder and thought they were just faking or they're just as if personalities. And I went through a long phase of of being led around by the by the this person's parts
Shelly Itzkowitz 34:40
and feeling desperate to help this this person and thinking I was doing good work. While I think in retrospect, I was a novice doing what what he thought It was good.
Shelly Itzkowitz 35:03
until a friend of mine introduced me to a woman who was a trained analyst in Westchester, known as Linda Fleischman. deeply, deeply indebted. And every other Friday, I would get on Metro North and travel up to Westchester and my friend would pick me up and we would study my work with my patient. And it was just remarkable. Just remark.
Lisa Danylchuk 35:40
So you've got that support to be able to start to navigate to help
Shelly Itzkowitz 35:43
me get a handle on countertransference. To help me know that it's okay to set limits. Yeah, that's that. I didn't know that. But when you're working with child parts, and you're not really familiar, I see by your expression, you know exactly what I'm saying. Yeah, yeah.
Lisa Danylchuk 36:03
Yeah, you're just sort of swimming around. And I totally, like I said earlier, you just like you're, you're sort of in it with them, which it can be helpful for someone to experience someone being with them in it, just having that presence. But it's a lot more helpful if if someone as a therapist can be both in it, and then step away from it and see the dynamic a little bit from the outside and then step in and connect, and then see and then say, Hey, I wonder if this resonates, I wonder if this is going on, I wonder how this part feels like, and to be able to set limits where right like even just as kids or I mean, I even think of my dogs, sometimes you have to just set, you just have to set a limit for the good of everyone involved. And so that can be such an important piece. And I know for myself, and for a lot of other therapists, there can be this sense of just swimming. Like I don't know what's going on, I'm just swimming in this and, and that's where consultation and pulling, pulling yourself back and connecting with, you know, having another little world to create with your supervisor or your person you're consulting with, that can help us sort of study ourselves and get on the ground and go, Oh, okay, this is a little bit of what I'm experiencing, or this is something I can bring, rather than just which can happen, like kind of, yeah, it's good to be with the person. But then if you're just swimming around and the dynamics with them, and nothing's changing, well, then it's not moving forward, right? How do you tend to describe dissociation to folks who are just learning about it?
Shelly Itzkowitz 37:42
Before I go to that, let me just say, part of why I wanted to teach is because I met with a lot of scorn in my early work with my first di D patient. And so did she, her history was abominable. And the rejection and dehumanization that she experienced at the hands of hospital staff, when she was admitted to hospitals was just awful. And if you're familiar, you know, someone that with the ideas in the mental health system for five to seven years before they get an accurate diagnosis. And this young woman was diagnosed as borderline personality disorder and, and most inpatient facilities don't like borderline personality disorder patients. And they literally, I want my threw her out of one of one of the hospitalizations. And so, I think, what I took from, from that, and from my own experience of people looking at me or laughing at me, saying that this doesn't exist, isn't the need to educate people that this is something that's real. This is not something that happens once or twice a century. This is something that is a function of the worst of, of human humanity. The worst that we that we humans do that children.
Lisa Danylchuk 39:32
Yeah, I think that's a really important piece. And especially because I see I see people maybe more in the general public, but also in the field of psychology and, and psychotherapy. Like if they don't quite understand maybe they understand PTSD, but if we're not gonna go to complex or complex trauma or dissociation, they're kind of like, yeah, like a little afraid of it or I don't, I don't want to go in there and and we all get to choose what we do for work. All right, that's fair. But at the same time, if, as researchers and academics and clinicians, were avoiding the hardest stuff, right, we're also not helping the people who need the help the most. In my opinion, like you need to help the most when the most awful things were done to you, or where you've been through the most horrific trauma, like, that's who we as mental health professionals should be, we should be equipped to support that. And the lighter stuff so to speak, like and the life transitions that many people go through, like, not everyone, not everyone has the ID not everyone goes through the horrific childhood experiences that tend to lead to that presentation. But if we just go, oh, well, that's really hard, or that's really confusing, a confusing, I don't feel comfortable teaching it. I'm not really sure about it. Well, I can understand why people might say that, because it is complex, and it is challenging, and it makes us feel insecure to not know. But it also is an act of neglect. And that's one of the things that especially when I hear people present, say on PTSD, and then go Oh, but yeah, but I'm not talking about that, like, well, you're helping the people who need the help the least then, and you're not helping the people who need the help the most. And that, to me feels like a really important point. Because I do still feel I mean, even when I was getting supervision, I had a client who showed up in very different presentations. And I went to my supervisor at the time, and I said, I think there's some dissociation going on. Oh, I don't know about that. And so of course, lucky me, I had plenty of consultation via other avenues. But But like, here, we are trying this was when I was working with young people who had been sexually exploited. So here we are working with this population that obviously has suffered horrific trauma. And at the same time, you know, people who are supervising aren't equipped to look at some of the ways that they might react to that, and are sort of, you know, oh, well, I don't know, maybe we don't need to look at that. I think we do, we really do need to step in and be confused and not understand it and know that it's that it's complicated and still, you know, at some level, be willing to at least direct to well, Where can those people get help? Right? If someone's deciding, like, again, fair, we all get to decide our lives. If someone's saying, this is the type of therapy I offer, this is how I help that that's totally, you know, within any of our choices as as professionals, but can we at minimum help them get to the place, they need to go without just sort of skirting? Oh, I don't know about that. And then leaving it alone, so So I feel like people like you who are not only offering support and treatment and clinical care, but are also teaching are so essential in the world right now. Because you have this experience you've learned through, you know, through work with clients through consultation through study and training and books you've learned and then folks who are going, I don't know about that, like, you're such a resource, right to be able to just download, okay, what, what is this thing that's dissociation? And how do I start to understand it, so I can at least refer in the right direction? If not, which, you know, a lot of clients will advocate for No, I like you, I want you to learn about it. A lot of times, people will tell their therapist don't refer me out, I want to work with you, I just want you to get these skills. So you're one of those people that that people can lean on right to gain skills a
Shelly Itzkowitz 43:43
lot of time, people who don't have experience with dissociation or with di D will want to refer the patients they've been working with for quite a while to someone who has is, quote air quotes and expert and working with the idea and and that is probably the least helpful but it's not really helpful because that therapist has already built and established a relationship with with that person. And, and so you want to support that, that therapist and that therapy by helping the therapist understand how a dissociated mind or dissociated Lee structured mind is organized, and how to help deal work with and interact with the parts to begin to, to bring some coherence help develop internal coherence in the person that they're working with. Yes.
Lisa Danylchuk 44:46
So back to the earlier question, if someone is just learning about dissociation, where do you start to introduce it to them?
Shelly Itzkowitz 44:57
Well, one place with Be to help them understand the difference between dissociative processes and a dissociation of the structured mind. And to help the the student, the therapist know that dissociation is a normal aspect of the brain mind brain. This is something that Philip Bromberg has, has written a lot about. I'm sure Richard Kluft has as well that we all dissociate, we're not necessarily aware of it. And, but but we all do at different times. And as you begin to talk about normal dissociative experiences, people start to become surprised little shock. And begin to recognize, oh, wait a minute. This is something that applies to me as well. Yeah. And but to, to be able to dis discuss a dissociative the structured, were part parts are separate, and compartmentalized. It sounds it sounds crazy to people. And that that word in particular. And, and it's actually not. Now, it's actually the ability of the mind brain to begin to develop these compartmentalized cells is actually a form of resilience. 100% they're allowing the mind brain is allowing that person to deal with cope and adapt to something that that's happening that shouldn't be happening.
Lisa Danylchuk 47:00
Yes. And this is where I think about, you know, the terminology we use for so long of abnormal or disorder. And, you know, my mom was advocating for, like, dissociative identity adaptation. Like, this is what happens to most or a lot of people when they're put in these circumstances, right, like, not everyone's the same, but but it is very much an adaptation and a point of resilience to be able to survive some of the most horrific things.
Shelly Itzkowitz 47:29
So that's a place to start and to tell them that to tell a student, everything you've seen on television, and in the movies about multiple personality disorder, just forget about, yeah, not what it is.
Lisa Danylchuk 47:52
Yeah, that often, you know, those are very dramatized.
Shelly Itzkowitz 47:58
Well, that's what sells tickets. Right.
Lisa Danylchuk 48:01
Exactly. Exactly. And for a lot of folks, I think, even in session, dissociation can be sort of subtle. So how do you support people and just picking up on it in the moment.
Shelly Itzkowitz 48:14
listening very carefully, to what's taking place between yourself, the person you're working with? listening for a shift in direction? listening for a change of subject, subject, a quick change the subject, those often are dissociative maneuvers. And paying attention to what you're feeling with the patient? Yes. That when you discover yourself feeling confused, like how did we get here? Yeah, that's a sign that dissociation is present. In both therapist and inpatient, the therapist is becoming aware that when they get here, they're becoming aware, they are beginning to observe themselves. They're recognizing something just happened. Yeah. So that that's, I guess, one way to think about it.
Lisa Danylchuk 49:30
Or their practices are saying like, approaches, I even think of, you know, as therapists, we always come back to sort of similar phrases and you know, I grew up with therapists so like, how do you feel about that or? Those are things
Shelly Itzkowitz 49:46
that's very important. I'm sure you know this, and probably most of your listeners are aware of this. You when you ask a friend, a relative How are you feeling? A lot of the time you don't get you what you get back are thoughts. Yeah. People, people commonly mistake thoughts for feelings. Yeah, feelings or bodily based experiences. And so. So when that happens in session, I'm very, I try to be attuned and aware, when I asked someone what just happened, or how are you feeling right now. And when I get thoughts back, I will say, try to say this gently, that's a thought, that's not a feeling. You, we need to help you be grounded in your body. feelings have naturally based experiences. They're a rational. They don't operate on a plane of right and wrong or good and bad. It's just something that you're experiencing.
Lisa Danylchuk 50:51
Yes. And I've noticed with folks who there's so much feeling or there's so much embodied emotion that, you know, it's a dissociative process, but it's also like that protective process of, you're gonna ask me a feeling question, and I'm gonna just go back to a story or back to a thought or back to right, I'm just gonna keep spinning on that, because it's too much to go there. So what do you do in those circumstances? Where someone, you know, is like, what do you mean, where do I feel it in my body? Or? It's too much for me to connect in that way? What are some approaches you found helpful?
Shelly Itzkowitz 51:31
Giving person as much space and respect is necessary? To be able to talk about, it's okay, if you don't know what you're feeling that's okay. And not to push too hard. Yeah. And to educate the person you're working with what a feeling is? Yeah. Not everybody knows what a feeling is. Right?
Lisa Danylchuk 52:03
It makes me think of those little magnets. Have you ever seen, you know, the ones they put put on the refrigerator or something that has angry, sad, ecstatic, joyful, disappointed, right, and, and, you know, I've seen a lot of those types of things in games over the years. And but, you know, for folks that definitely weren't raised by therapists, like those things can, can be really helpful. Like, maybe we didn't have that language and my family or I wasn't allowed to talk about how I felt or nobody asked, or there's so many iterations of why or how someone might not really feel connected to, to even some of those, you know, sort of basic emotion categories, let alone to like, detailed expressions of somatically. What's, what's going on? Well, you and I'm in the yoga world. So people are like, I feel a tingling in my upper arm that's radiating out to my palms, and there's heat and there's anger. The whole thing going.
Shelly Itzkowitz 52:58
You have the upper hand on so many people haven't been raised by two therapists.
Lisa Danylchuk 53:03
Two good ones. You know, I'm very lucky.
Shelly Itzkowitz 53:06
In the, in the culture, I grew up in feelings were not that wonderful, necessarily. And if you were a man, strength meant you don't feel right. If you think about the heroes in movies, in the 1930s 1940s 50s 60s. It's the male character is somebody who is logical, thoughtful, can solve problems, but doesn't feel and it is in complete control of his internal experience.
Lisa Danylchuk 53:49
Yeah, that that which is essentially repressed, right, which is
Shelly Itzkowitz 53:55
We have to we have to differentiate between repression and dissociation, we have to be careful. So a large portion of our population has been shamed. Because they feel right. Big Boys Don't Cry. Why not?
Lisa Danylchuk 54:20
Yep. And that just makes me think about how as a culture and the messages we send, we can, you know, lead someone on a path of needing to disconnect from a part of themselves. I think of folks I've worked with who are, you know, identifying their sexuality and coming out and recognizing it wasn't safe to be that where I grew up. So, so I didn't even know. Right? And this is where and I think of your comment, like big boys don't cry. I don't cry. I don't get sad. Even I don't know. I'm sad. Okay, so that's that edge right between a something repressed? Or is it so far gone that we can't access it?
Shelly Itzkowitz 55:13
To answer the question about how to present this to someone who just learning about it. Another thing that comes to mind, is this a discussion about self states? Yes, and what is the self state? Self states are not all two personalities, right? Self states can be dissociated. And to just help people understand that we all have self states, we all have parts. Yeah, and those of us who are not so cognizant of our parts, are the ones who were fortunate enough to be raised in healthy families, and have healthy attachment relationships, and attachment bonds. And we take this sense of self being a singular and bounded for granted.
Lisa Danylchuk 56:13
Yeah, and I see more conversations about, you know, earlier, we're talking about bifurcated, or, you know, places where we have to be in different roles, even okay, I'm a parent, I'm a sister, I'm a clinician I'm in this or that, you know, there's a see more conversation about that. For therapists to which I think is important, right for us to notice, like, what seat we're taking, and how culture impacts how we think we're supposed to be and how even our training has its own culture? Or are there any sort of ways you help people identify their different self states? If it's a new concept?
Shelly Itzkowitz 56:57
We talking about? Patient? Or if supervisee?
Lisa Danylchuk 57:02
Like supervisee? Like, there's someone who's just going, I don't get this association stuff. You're saying we all have self states? I mean, wherever I am, right? Like, how would you?
Shelly Itzkowitz 57:12
So I would just gently ask them to describe what it's like how they experience themselves, and how do they feel when they're at home with your partner? What is that like? And how does that differ for when they're with a parent? How do you experience yourself when you with a parent? And how do you expand yourself when you with a friend? And how do you experience yourself when you're with different patients? Yes. How are you experiencing yourself with me? What's it like to be in the room with me? What's it like for me to be asking you these questions. And I also describe an experience. Many years ago, I went to high school, reunion 35th high school reunion. And it feels like this is right out of a comedy. Like a coup couldn't wait to get there to see some of my friends who I hadn't seen in 35 years. And what really struck me so profoundly is the experience of the me that was in high school. I felt a sense of freedom. boyish adolescent freedom. Yeah. laughter and joking with my friends that I hadn't seen in such a long time. It was it was thrilling. And that meat was not the father of a fairly young baby girl. Right? That was very, that was a very different knee. Yeah. And so that I give that as an example of a cell state. It's not impressed. It's not dissociated. I recognize that I recognize it. Recognize it as part of me. Yes. But it's a part of me that. I'm not sure how to explain this. It's a part of me that that needed to be put in the background. To take to move forward in life. Right. I noticed.
Lisa Danylchuk 59:42
Yeah. But I think people can relate to that. It makes me think of like, coming home from college and then getting in the car with my two parents and my two brothers and sitting in the middle and immediately being like, Why do I always sit in the middle? I want the window. I'm 21 And I'm talking like, I'm six. And yet some of it is just that circumstance and the dynamics between people, and how I mean, I just over time, and especially studying this stuff, but also just noticing myself throughout life. Like, it's so powerful when you get to people together, the dynamics can be so strong that even when you're like, here I am. I'm 20. And I live far away in college and you come back, and then you just say the same things you said in like, 1986, or
Shelly Itzkowitz 1:00:27
whatever. You're right back in. Yeah.
Lisa Danylchuk 1:00:31
And that's really normal. That's another thing too, I think, with different cell states and these kinds of things, that, that that's just how we work. And it's a testament to how powerful group dynamics are. But it's also a testament to how powerful and alive different cell states can be within us, you know, whether or not they're like, this doesn't have to be a clinical thing. It's just a human thing.
Shelly Itzkowitz 1:00:57
Yeah. And and what you're describing, it's also a function of the pull of the family. Yeah, pressure on the family to get you to be back in that role.
Lisa Danylchuk 1:01:09
Yes. It was so easy So quick, why do I always have to sit in the middle? So I was asking this earlier, but are there any like practice, like sayings that you feel like over time have just become really common for you any like, classic therapy sayings or things that you come back to that feel like they're really helpful in clinical work?
Shelly Itzkowitz 1:01:37
me someday, I would say to a patient.
Lisa Danylchuk 1:01:39
Yeah. I find that there's things that we repeat. And sometimes I'm not as this funny because like, I'm not even super aware of them. But maybe one of my clients will be like, I heard you asking me, what would that look like? And I'm like, Oh, I do say, what would that look like a lot. But there's things that we ended up coming back to? Yeah, because they're helpful, maybe because we were trained that way. But also, I find that the things we repeat, as clinicians and as therapists like those can be really telling to you they can be great tools, then they can also just be interesting to reflect on.
Shelly Itzkowitz 1:02:15
I think, I think one of the things I do a lot is, How are you feeling right? Now, where in the body? Do you feel it? Yes, that's certainly one thing I do a lot of. Especially with the traumatized patients. I'm right here, I'm with you. Yes. Think we get this question? A lot more thought?
Lisa Danylchuk 1:02:47
No, no, those are both great answers. And that's, that's really helpful. I, I find that the I'm right here. And I'm with you, says so many things, right? It brings people back to that world of the relationship. It also is a bridge out of any kind of place someone might be in, in a memory or right. So there's a lot of power in that as well.
Shelly Itzkowitz 1:03:09
Sometimes when a patient will say to me, I don't feel your presence. I feel like you're here. So that I won't say, what is it that I'm doing? Or what is it that I've done or said that makes it hard to feel me being present with you? And as best as you could sense? What could I do? What can I say, to help you recognize that I actually am here with you know?
Lisa Danylchuk 1:03:45
Or I know for me, I might go? Yeah, you know, you're right. I just got caught up on a thought. You're right, I'm really hungry. And I'm sorry. You're right. I was thinking about lunch.
Shelly Itzkowitz 1:04:02
But that's very powerful, because you're acknowledging the patient's perception of you.
Lisa Danylchuk 1:04:07
As as true. Yeah. And I feel that's an important thing. If someone says, I feel you're not here with me to go, am I am I gone? Like, did I? Is there something that's distracting me? Or is there something happening internally in my body that's taking me away? Sometimes I'll just tell folks, you know, Hey, I didn't sleep well last night. So if I seem a little off, it's not you. It's me at the beginning, and you know, that way there at least kind of know, have a sense of where I am in my body, especially if I feel like it's going to since it's apparent already. I might as well just
Shelly Itzkowitz 1:04:40
you share with the person you're working with, where you are where you were. No, that's great. Thanks. Great.
Lisa Danylchuk 1:04:51
So I just have a couple more questions, and one of them's a biggie. You've written a book with Elizabeth Howell on psychopathy and human evil and And I'm wondering, given the degree of trauma you've worked with, you know, the people who've been harmed? How have you come to understand psychopathy over time? And how have you come to understand evil? I mean, this is something obviously, folks can dig into in to your book. But is there anything you would say about that in a? And maybe medium sized nutshell?
Shelly Itzkowitz 1:05:24
Well, let me start by saying that not all psychopaths are serial killers. That that's a confusion that many people may know. And it's important for people to to know that there is something called a successful corporate psychopath. Now, they're not just people who are in prison. Michael Stone has a chapter in the book, and he talks about evil is what make people go, Oh, my God, that's just horrible. That's his explanation of what evil is. I would say evil is inflict intentionally inflicting pain or harm on another human being, without any sense of guilt, any sense of remorse? And even with a sense of pleasure? Yeah, that's evil.
Lisa Danylchuk 1:06:32
I'm curious to and I don't know, you know, how much you want to go into this. We don't have to, but for you, as a Jewish person, how that concept folds, and given how much harm was intentionally done, and to Jewish people as a group?
Shelly Itzkowitz 1:06:53
Do you have two or three hours? I know.
Lisa Danylchuk 1:06:58
It's kind of hard to start with that question. But
Shelly Itzkowitz 1:07:02
Well, I grew up in the shadow of the Holocaust. And part of what was dissociated in my world was my, the murder of my father's entire entire family. And that, that was pretty profound. And I grew up in a time when people would refer to Jews as Christ killers. Wow. And it led to a sense of shame of who I am. And a feeling of needing to hide. Yeah. And unfortunately, given the world events, anti semitism is alive, and unfortunately, alive and growing. And I don't know what I don't know what to say about it in just a few words. Is it evil? Yeah.
Lisa Danylchuk 1:08:10
Yeah, I mean, that fits your definition, right? It's intentionally harming
Shelly Itzkowitz 1:08:15
to hate someone for their religious beliefs, the color of their skin, their sexual orientation. That's evil. It's myopic. It's narrow minded. And it represents a how a person is threatened by other groups.
Lisa Danylchuk 1:08:41
I don't know if you've worked much with perpetrators. But do you have a sense of what if someone is presenting with some of these more antisocial, you know, behaviors? Do you have a sense of what can be healing for that group?
Shelly Itzkowitz 1:09:00
When you say perpetrator, I want to exclude sexual perpetrators. Okay, yeah, I can't work with them. Okay. Just I'm so immersed in my work with victims. Right? Yeah. I don't think I could find the compassion. I think it'd be really hard for me to do that.
Shelly Itzkowitz 1:09:29
In terms of in terms of people who perpetrate other misdeeds, but crimes. One needs to have the courage and the sense of freedom to be able to call it for what it is and talk about it. And talk about how it pertains to that person's experience growing up in that particular family in their particular culture, and right what it means.
Lisa Danylchuk 1:10:18
I've also found that, like what we talked about before, have that capacity to feel right to dissociate something or to feel what's actually happening in your heart, in your body, in your emotions, in your in your brain and your mind like to actually connect with something like that. For people that perpetrators I've worked with, there's almost it almost, they almost need to dip into that vulnerability and their own emotions in order to feel the remorse or the empathy or the right. And so that process, right, I've actually reconnecting emotionally with themselves, which can be a massive undertaking, right for some people, given their culture and their experience and all the things that you just mentioned, right, but actually tapping into their own emotional life and their own vulnerability can be a big piece of that. And then you take on top of that some of the toxic masculinity you were talking about before. And you know, if genders and element there, that can be another barrier. And so you just see how that can be just big stacks around resulting some of the stuff
Shelly Itzkowitz 1:11:27
mentioned two really important words empathy and compassion, and my dad to that guilt. a psychopath can't expect that they don't experience that. They don't have the ability to feel real guilt and real empathy. If they did, they wouldn't be doing half the things that they do. But if you're working with somebody who's who's perpetrating, but that person has the capacity
Shelly Itzkowitz 1:11:58
for empathy, compassion, and guilt, that you have a lot to work with. Yeah.
Lisa Danylchuk 1:12:11
Yeah. Yeah. And I think sometimes, you know, folks who don't present as having that capacity, can some people can develop it over time if there's an appropriate therapeutic relationship. But I'm thinking a lot of like, Delia, who came on the podcast, who works with offenders in prisons, and right when you have someone that you can develop a relationship with for a really long period of time. Sometimes, they'll love for it to be all the time. But sometimes, folks who have done really horrific things, can reconnect with their emotional selves and their emotional lives and can find or reconnect with that sense of empathy, compassion or guilt. But that's it. When we add in the layer of shame, right? Like it's a big ask and can be a really long term trajectory and, and can feel impossible or be impossible for certain people for sure. The true
Shelly Itzkowitz 1:13:05
psychopath will make you believe that he actually feels guilt and shame and passion, because that's what he knows you want to hear the tool it's such a used as a tool.
Lisa Danylchuk 1:13:22
This is the perfect setup to the next interview, which will be Jennifer fried, who talks about, I'll talk about institutional courage, but also Darbo and all these things. So I want to respect your time and I just love the richness of all this conversation. There's so many, you know, so much that you bring and so many different places we can go. I'm just curious if there's you know, folks out there we've been going through it a lot, you know, people who maybe haven't been to therapy before or just sort of learning about dissociation like what might you say to someone who's really struggling and just wanting to go in the direction of healing.
Shelly Itzkowitz 1:14:00
Go on the ISSTD website, ISST/D.org. And look up the information for for non professionals learn about dissociation. Learn about the different types of dissociation, learn about dissociative processes. And find someone to talk to find someone, not just anyone. Find someone who is trained and understands that a dissociative mind yeah. Otherwise, if you find if you ask someone who doesn't know about dissociation, you'll be led astray.
Lisa Danylchuk 1:15:01
Then you're just sort of swimming around in circles and not quite getting anywhere.
Shelly Itzkowitz 1:15:06
And it's not the other thing is not something to be ashamed of. Sure. nothing to be ashamed.
Lisa Danylchuk 1:15:15
Yeah. Well definitely put that link in the shownotes for the ISS city website. And I'm curious too, you know, you do a lot of work with really, you know, horrific actions and significant trauma and dissociation. What gives you a sense of hope in the world?
Shelly Itzkowitz 1:15:34
Oh, this is a bad time to ask me that. Because I'm feeling a little hopeless.
Lisa Danylchuk 1:15:43
It's a perfect time to ask that.
Shelly Itzkowitz 1:15:49
What gives me hope. Really, I'm, I'm kind of suffering along with many people who think and feel just the way I do about the tyranny that is taking place in the world, the rise of fascism.
Shelly Itzkowitz 1:16:07
It's, I find it very, very frightening. So I'm gonna hold off answering that question, because that's a big question.
Shelly Itzkowitz 1:16:23
Yeah. Can I other than to say, I believe in the goodness of humanity? I do.
Lisa Danylchuk 1:16:32
Well, that's huge. Yeah. I mean, and you just mentioned a lot of other people who are seeing what you're seeing too. And you mentioned the ISF CD. And so that makes me think of right not to put words in your mouth at all, but it makes me think of, right, just the concentrated effort towards healing. And that's, I think, what I come back to when I have rough days, I think of all the yoga teachers I know, who are teaching in, you know, places where there's a lot of trauma, they're teaching to combat veterans, they're teaching in juvenile halls and prisons, and they're teaching in recovery centers, where people are uncovering a lot of trauma that they haven't faced before there. And so I think about those yoga teachers, I think about all of you at istd, I think about folks who have really are committed to supporting a positive shift, whether that's ended a person or in a group or across the board, it's it's helpful for me to come back to that. You give me hope, Shelly? Yes. And you put so much you've poured so much love and care into your your career? What's next for you?
Shelly Itzkowitz 1:17:45
What's next?
Lisa Danylchuk 1:17:47
What's next? Are you like? Are you going to continue doing clinical work forever? Are you going to keep teaching? Do you have any, any exciting presentations coming up?
Shelly Itzkowitz 1:17:56
I think the answer is yes. I have no plans to retire. And I hope I will remain healthy and strong, physically and mentally able to continue to work. I love what I do. And it shows once once the COVID crisis is behind us. If if I'm still here. I'd like to get get out more and have do some more fun things. But I love what I do.
Lisa Danylchuk 1:18:36
Nice. That's great. And we'll put your website in the show notes. Is there any other way you'd want to connect with people? Are you big on social media or anything?
Shelly Itzkowitz 1:18:44
No. I have a Facebook page, but I don't really?
Lisa Danylchuk 1:18:50
Yeah. Yeah. So we'll put put your website in the show notes. I think it's Sheldon, it's go. It's PhD. All right. We'll put that link into. Well, thank you so much for being here and for sharing your rich experience with me and with all of us. I just appreciate you Shelley. I mean, I don't know people probably got a little taste of it today, girl. So just hilarious. I just love your sense of humor. I just so appreciate the depth you bring to this work and the lightness at the same time. And, and yeah, just thanks for sharing yourself and your your experience and your insights with us here today. Thank you really great having
Shelly Itzkowitz 1:19:26
Thank you so much for inviting me to be on your show. And it's really an honor to be invited. I appreciate it.
Shelly Itzkowitz 1:19:32
Come back anytime.
Shelly Itzkowitz 1:19:35
That's a deal. Okay, you got to deal.
Lisa Danylchuk 1:19:37
Thanks so much for listening. My hope is that you walk away from these episodes feeling supported, and like you have a place to come to find the hope and inspiration you need to take your next small step forward. For more information and resources, please visit howwecanheal.com There you'll find tons of helpful resources and the full transcript of each show. Thanks so much for your messages, feedback and ideas about the podcast. I love hearing from you and I so appreciate your support. There are lots of ways you can support the show and I'm grateful for every little bit of love you share. If you love the show, please leave us a review on Apple, Spotify, Audible or wherever you get your podcasts. You can also subscribe on YouTube to get updates every week. You can always visit howwecanheal.com/podcast to share your thoughts and ideas I love hearing from you. So keep your comments coming. If you'd like to stay connected in between episodes, you can also text me the word HEAL to 888-858-0811. That's 888-858-0811. That number has a lot of eights in it. I'll send you some inspiration and support a few times a month and you can text me back there too. Before we wrap up, I want to be clear that this podcast isn't offering any prescriptions. It's not advice or any kind of diagnosis. Your decisions are in your hands. And we encourage you to consult with any relevant health care professionals you may need to support you through your unique path of healing. I'd also like to send thanks to our guests today to Christine O'Donnell and Celine Baumgartner of Bright Sighted Podcasting, and to everyone who helps support this podcast directly and indirectly. Alex, thanks for taking the dogs out while I record. Last week, I'd love to give a shout out to my big brother man who passed away in 2002. He wrote this music and it makes my heart so happy to share it with you now.
Comments are closed