Today on the How We Can Heal Podcast, Lisa Danylchuk chats with Chill and Prosper Author Denise Duffield-Thomas. The pair dive into all things money culture, developing your strong money mindset and creating a work-life balance around the way you want to live. Their discussion went so in-depth the episode is split into two parts. Stay tuned next week for PART 2.
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About Denise Duffield-Thomas:
Denise Duffield-Thomas is the money mentor for the new wave of online entrepreneurs who want to make money and change the world.
She helps entrepreneurs charge premium prices, release the fear of money and create First Class lives.
Her books 'Lucky Bitch', 'Get Rich, Lucky Bitch', and 'Chill & Prosper' give a fresh and funny roadmap to living a life of abundance without burnout.
Her Money Bootcamp has helped over 8,000 students from all around the world.
Outline of the episode:
- [5:15] Being a Chillprenuer
- [15:07] Money Culture & Excavation Work
- [25:48] What your school shoes say about you
- [39:44] Our collective money trauma—taxes
- [51:17] Developing your anchor
- [55:39] ADHD & taboo topics
Resources:
Website: https://www.denisedt.com/
Chill and Prosper: https://www.denisedt.com/books
Tune into Denise’s podcast: https://www.denisedt.com/podcast
Transcription:
Denise Duffield-Thomas 0:00
I actually say to people, when in doubt, shave your legs. And there is some truth to that if sometimes you don't know what to do, so you're paralyzed. And I think you can always go and shave your legs and it does shift your energy sometimes. And that could be true for anything you could say when in doubt. You know, clean your fridge out when in doubt. You know, clean off your computer screen you know, when you just do something and you go, oh, I feel so good. Okay, I feel I feel like I've shifted something.
Lisa Danylchuk 0:41
Welcome back to Season Two of the How We Can Heal podcast. I so enjoyed sharing season one with you. And we have some incredible guests coming on for season two. I created this podcast because the hard time seem to just keep on coming these days. These guests and I have committed our lives to healing work, and to fostering health and joy in the world, even as we work through the impacts of trauma and face deep challenges. So let's dive in and let's all keep talking about how we can heal. Today our guest is Denise Duffield Thomas Denise Duffield Thomas is the author of chill printer, Lucky Bitch and get rich Lucky Bitch all books that give a fresh and funny roadmap to living a life of abundance without burnout. Denise is a money mentor for the new wave of online entrepreneurs who want to make money and change the world. She helps women release the fear of money and create first class lives. Her money boot camp has helped over 8000 students from all around the world. She describes herself as a lazy introvert and is also a Hay House author and an unbusy mother of three. She owns a rose farm and lives by the beach in sunny Australia. Denise and I connected when a fellow entrepreneur recommended her chill and prosper mentality to me. And I quickly devoured her book ShopRunner I love her openness and how she speaks to leading a life that's both fulfilling and prosperous while making meaningful change. We talked for two hours, y'all. So this is part one. And we'll come back next week with part two. I hope you enjoy Denise Duffield-Thomas. I'm so excited to have you on the how we can heal podcast. How are you doing?
Denise Duffield-Thomas 2:27
I'm so good. Thanks so much for having me.
Lisa Danylchuk 2:29
Good. And you're joining from the rose farm out in eastern Australia.
Denise Duffield-Thomas 2:33
Well, I'm at the at my beach house today. So I have okay, each house and I have a farm. There were only 45 minutes apart. And my farm is where I cosplay being a farmer. Because yes, I can't do anything.
Lisa Danylchuk 2:49
And I'm so excited to talk to you today. Because a lot of folks I work with trauma and I work with a lot of people who are going through it and and people who have big visions of healing centers and gathering and connecting on farms with the earth and at the beach with the water. So I just love that you have those spaces. And from everything I know about you, you're really helping people access those spaces in a way that's relaxed and chill rather than stressful. So I want to dive into all of that.
Denise Duffield-Thomas 3:19
That's actually been a really good learning for me. I bought the farm in 2018. And straightaway, I thought this will be a great place to bring people, you know for for events and retreats. And obviously pandemic has cancelled a lot of those retreats, but I have managed to do a few. And what was interesting to me is, I kept on thinking when people come I'm like, I have to give them so much information. And I have to fix all the problems of their life. And we have to do all these things. And I took one lady there into our Rose tunnels. And I just said to her, go pick a ruse that represents where you are in business at the moment. And it was so profound and emotional for her. And now I realized so much that space is so healing for people and I don't have to push it. I don't have to force things. I can just allow people to be in that space. And I've got a retreat coming up in August. And it's just such a big lesson in not over doing the agenda because space is so needed for all of us at the moment.
Lisa Danylchuk 4:27
It's so necessary, and I feel like when we're pushed too hard, it's like that contraction goes against what we're trying to do with healing. We're trying to like ease in we're trying to, you know, let stuff come to the surface. And when we're like, Come on, let's go. Right? Yeah, let's get there. Yeah. And that's actually I think, really common as a trauma therapist. Really common people, like get it out. Like let's get it done. And a walk in in the rose bushes might do it would be like why am I walking in the rose bushes. Let's get this out of here and you're like well cuz that's the way that's the way Yeah. So you've been an entrepreneur and a writer and all these things for a long time. I'm curious when you first recognized like, I need to chill this way is it was there like this way isn't working? Or were you always just blessed with the chill vibe?
Denise Duffield-Thomas 5:15
I'm literally half half. So I've always been someone who naturally tries to find a shortcut to do something. I'm always like, why would we do it that way when we can do it this way, and save time and energy and effort, which I was kind of called lazy for, but it wasn't it was just I was like, this seems really smart. The other side of me though, is such a overcommit someone who is delusional about time and space, linear time and time and space, I think I can do everything all at once. I struggled to set boundaries. So I really go between the two. And I'm really honest about that, especially in the book, I say, you know, being at ShopRunner is aspirational for me, too. Because of all these, you know, I have to understand that about my personality. And that's part of the book is to say, know thyself, and prosper. Yes. And for me, I know, I'm that person. So I have to sometimes put different things into place to combat that, despite myself, so I'm totally 5050.
Lisa Danylchuk 6:27
And to know, when you're in that space of, oh, I'm really excited right now, I think I can do everything, I'm totally under estimating how much time this is going to take, like, let me keep a little bit of awareness of the part of me that shows up when Oh, my God over committed, this is taking way much longer than way longer than I thought it was going to and all that stuff. It's like the balance like this CO consciousness of parts of ourselves, right.
Denise Duffield-Thomas 6:52
And sometimes that's a system in place. And so I'll give you a great example. If people contact me to do an interview, I'm just like, Yeah, let's do it, whatever. And I but I have a system in place with my Calendly account, that it can only book four interviews in one day. And actually, it's usually it's less than that. But I'm promoting a book. And the calendar puts time in between sessions, because I used to do things back to back and not have any time to pee or get fresh water or fresh tea. And so my calendar does that. For me, there's half an hour between each appointment. So it has to override my tendency to say yes to everything. And so I try and look for little things like that, to do it in spite of myself, because I will say yes, otherwise. And I will just think I can do it all. And I get myself in trouble all the time with it. So I try and learn from it by putting systems in place, not changing my behavior. Because I do think behavior change is really hard. For people.
Lisa Danylchuk 7:57
It's challenging. It's challenging, it's really challenging. But that's one way to reinforce it is to put external things in place, right? So it's like if you're on your way to, you know, a great example, you're on your way to make your coffee in the morning, you step on your yoga mat on the way there, you're like, oh, right, I was gonna I keep saying I want to do five minutes of yoga in the morning. What's that sticky? Oh, my feet. Oh, it's my yoga mat. Right. It's like just something that sort of interrupts a pattern. Was there anyone that you found you could really look up to that was, you know, a chill printer just seemed like they were winning at life, having a great life and not getting caught up in the stress.
Denise Duffield-Thomas 8:38
I think the seeds of the book are really planted when I read The Four Hour Workweek, which I read in my 20s. And that really led me on a path to really seeking out kind of entrepreneur communities because I didn't know anybody who was even an entrepreneur. And I think when you're surrounded by people, a lot of my friends, you know, this is probably mid 20s. So a lot of my friends were working in consulting roles. A lot of my friends were like, Accenture, and Sindh, young Deloitte PWC. And I tried to go that route. And it was so horrible for me. But I didn't have any examples. And that's so important because you have to normalize what you want to be. And when I tried to talk about things like the four hour workweek or passive income or, you know, online business with with those friends, they really felt like I was doing something scammy or wrong. And then my friends from back home who were in, you know, nursing and teaching jobs, they were not in that space either. And so I don't think I really found a lot of people who were doing business in the way that I wanted to, I saw a lot of examples of what I didn't want to do once I got into the entrepreneurial world. And I remember No offense, I'm gonna name people. But like when Gary Vee was, you know, talking, I tried to follow Him because so many of my friends were, and he was like, you have to produce 60 pieces of content a day, or I'm paraphrasing, but I just went, oh my god, I can't do that. But also, I realized how many people I was, I was following, particularly men who didn't have kids, you know, didn't have a lot of the caring responsibilities that, you know, that I had. And I realized I was like, I think I need to write a book too about that. Because I was kind of I remember being really annoyed at Tim Ferriss, that he wasn't talking about that stuff. And then like biddies, he can't he would only ever be able to talk about it from his perspective and his point of view. And so I was like, Well, I'm gonna write a book. And that's, that's when I started writing ShopRunner it was I'd had my second baby. I was just really conflicted, and just going, how am I going to do this? Because my creative life is so important to me. My quest for freedom and financial independence is so important to me. And suddenly, I was like, how am I going to do this? You know, it was kind of made it work with one kid, and I like to, I'm going to do it. And then I see people who, you know, might not have kids, but they have caring responsibilities with family members, they have chronic illnesses, they just, you know, like, have challenges that they want to try and deal with trauma, right? That's a burden to deal with, that you carry along with you on your journey. And so that's what was really inspiring. The book is like, how can we make it as easy as we can, knowing that it's never completely effortless? But how can we make it easier for ourselves? And I find that so much of a permission, because things aren't allowed to be easy, right? Right, they can be easy and profitable.
Lisa Danylchuk 11:56
The culture here in the States is very like work, work, work. And then that will be rewarded. Would you say it's similar in Australia to just like, put your nose to the grindstone and work overtime? And then you'll be rewarded. But if you don't, you will?
Denise Duffield-Thomas 12:07
Oh, well, I love talking about this, because I have had a couple of roundtable interviews with people who are either in similar professions or similar like geographical places. So I did one with my British clients, and I do one with my Australian clients. And because I find that, you know, a lot of my business is geared to America. And America is kind of your very dominant culture, in lots of ways around the world. And I just wanted to see what those geographical differences are. And then I started asking some of my American American clients about the cities and towns they lived in, and what's the, what's the flavor of the money mindset there? What are you allowed to, you know, what are you allowed to do for work? What? What's the culture? Right? So what was really interesting about my British clients is that a British value is queuing, waiting your turn. Yeah, same polite. And we wanted to see how that's showing up in their businesses. And it's not seen as polite, I guess, to really pitch yourself for something. Put yourself when you have to wait your turn. Yeah, you have to wait to your tickets called. And that could show up in not wanting to move faster than people you started with. mentors, peers, yeah. Not been seen to be jumping the queue in any way. And that could show up in things like, well, I can't do Facebook ads, because that's just cheating. That's jumping the queue. I've got to do this organically, you know, and I've got to earn my place. So it's those little subtle ways it could be showing up for Australia, though. Australians, again, generality here, pretty open about talking about a lot of things. So we hustle, but you can't be seen to be hustling. Hmm, it's almost like the laid back thing is a bit of an affectation. Because I know particularly in the town that I live in, it was a steel town, it was a coal mining town. And so there are a lot of wealthy people here. But they, they're almost like they have to still pretend to be working class.
Lisa Danylchuk 14:22
Interesting. Yeah.
Denise Duffield-Thomas 14:24
And you want to try and be like a egalitarian and all that kind of stuff. It's the Great Australian Dream is to own your own house. And to you know, be with your mates and things like that. And so you don't really want to show off too much. And then when you look at some cultures, and I was talking to someone, I think it was Finland. When you earn over, say 100,000 euros, your name gets published publicly. Oh, yeah. It's almost like this thing of going. We want transparency. We want transparency around taxation and things like that. But there's almost that fear. You can imagine how many people if you've got a visibility If you would hold themselves back under that threshold.
Lisa Danylchuk 15:02
oh, yeah, they'd be 99 999 for as long as they could, wouldn't they?
Denise Duffield-Thomas 15:07
And then I was speaking to someone in Pittsburgh the other day, and then she could really relate to that thing of being working class from working class town. And, you know, so this totally regional differences. But then the extra flavor of that is, what if you have parents who come from another country? What if you have two parents who come from completely different cultures? What, what's acceptable for a woman in your family or your culture to earn, and I was speaking to someone the other day, who was a, you know, like, first generation, immigrant family comes from a different culture. And she was saying, I live in this weird place where my family has sacrificed for me to go to college to get a good job to earn money. So they expect that that investment is going to pay off. But there's also this unspoken thing that I'm not allowed to make more than my dad. So it's like, what do you do with that? You know, you kind of got it's all unspoken to ya camp lately unspoken. So that's where I'll live in my work is just having that curiosity. And it's not saying everyone in one culture is the same. It's what's the flavor of the culture? And where do you fit into that culture? Because you might grow up like I was really ambitious, always as a kid. And so I felt different to my friends who like, well, you know, you just grow up and you get a job and you buy a house. And that's it. You know, why do you want more than that? So I probably would have felt, you know, quite at home in an American kind of culture. But then what I find is fascinating, is, sometimes we have a complete story about how we grew up. You know, I've spoken to people who thought their parents were poor, because of the way they spoke about money. And there was almost this panic and scarcity all the time of there's not enough, something bad's gonna happen. And they didn't know that they were well off. Or the families were middle class, but they felt depending on where they were, they either felt poor, because they went to a wealthy school, or they felt like the rich kids in town, and what he's about that and all spectrums. So it's really fascinating. Everyone's got to look at their own flavor, and see what stories they made up around that and see how it's impacting their income, their their business, their visibility, dealing with the trauma of that. There's definitely some trauma around that.
Lisa Danylchuk 17:49
And there's culture and there's family, and there's peer relationships. I mean, you just outlined so many different influences. And we're such social creatures that, you know, to ignore that, like, how are we going to address how we're built inside, if we're not looking at all of our relationships, and all the things we're steeped in, especially as we're growing up.
Unknown Speaker 18:08
and the era we grew up in, you know, even even if you just looked at TV, you know, so for people who grew up in the 60s, you know, the TV was about like homemakers, women are homemakers. And then the rebels who like, you know, married Harlem, or, you know, the single girls who went off, they were really seen as outliers. And they grew up seeing things like Bewitched, and I Dream of Jeannie these women who had these powers, but they really just wanted to be ordinary housewives. And, and then I grew up in the era of like, dynasty of the rich bitch. And, you know, in the 90s, if I saw women in movies and TVs, who had a business, it was like, a little failing florist shop or either a bookstore that's going under, or that push pool of career family.
Lisa Danylchuk 19:08
Yeah, always. Yeah, right. Yeah. Right, and why people always point out and people ask women all the time, how do you do it? How do you do the family in the business? And people just don't, even when men are fathers, they tend to not ask that. Ask that question. Would you consider it healing that people are looking for? Do you think about it that way?
Denise Duffield-Thomas 19:29
Yes. And I think it's understanding. Yeah. Because it's the water we grew up in. You don't see it? Yeah. And I stopped saying I helped people clear moneybox a little while ago. It's still there sometimes in my work, but I realize it's such an ongoing conversation forever. Yes. Like anything. And so it's more about understanding, and you said to about patent interrupter I talked about a lot in my work of going, let's look at your origin stories. Let's look at how it's impacting you and connect the dots. And let's let's do some pattern interrupting one. So you can even just understand it and see it and recognize it next time. But also then you can, there's some things you can stop and some things that will be an ongoing, like battle, sometimes, even just an ongoing conversation. Yeah, and I find the big deep ones, the ongoing suffer, things like impostor syndrome, and guilt around money that follows people a lot. The top line things of, oh, it was impolite for my family to talk about money. That's why it's hard for me to send out an invoice. Oh, okay, cool. I can do something with that.
Lisa Danylchuk 20:45
So it's really understanding where is this fear coming from? Or where is this limitation coming from, and some of those are coming from culture and society. And some of those are coming from family. Some are coming from friends that are kind of, you know, we, we collect them from all these different places, as we're developing and then say, you're in your 20s. And you say, I want to start a business. Well, there you go, you've got this plateful of beliefs and systems that if you haven't looked at and tried to at least prune through, you know that, then that's the time but it doesn't stop there. Right. These things are,
Denise Duffield-Thomas 21:15
it's ongoing. I actually call it excavation work. Because there's so many layers that are really compacted. Yeah, over time. All the things we mentioned before about how did you grow up? And what area you grew up in? And your what do you family say what school like for you? What was your teenage times teenager work, I actually love to entertain work for money through. But it's just like this layer. And so sometimes we think, Oh, we have to clear everything before we're allowed to make money. But it's actually this excavation work. And every now and again, you find this golden nugget. And that's your reward of doing the work. And it means Oh, I found this little golden nugget, oh, I can up my prices a little bit. Oh, that's great. So the good news is you don't have to clear everything for you to to make money, you're just always looking for those little nuggets of gold that reward you.
Lisa Danylchuk 22:11
I'm trying to remember where I heard this. But someone talks about like, when you are growing a business and you know, I've worked with some students and other professionals who, you know, we're applying trauma work to growing a business and sort of saying, Oh, look, I I tried to grow. And then this fear came up and I went into hyper arousal or I went into I'm gonna hide in the closet, or whatever our sort of biological reactions to these things are. But it's so interesting just to map growing something like a movement growing, you know, I have a yoga for trauma online training program. And I invite people into that space. And it's like, every time I think intentionally I want to grow this space. And you you push a little edge, something comes up some some interesting thing, it might be familiar, it might be new, it might be a golden nugget. But there's always that, you know, people talking about just moving out of your comfort zone, right, and then more information comes up. So it's interesting, because in terms of especially early childhood trauma, or things that we go through in life, that we don't really think are affecting us, well, then we take the action, and we try, we do something bold, or we do something we really care about. And then that stuff comes back to the surface, right, then those thoughts and beliefs pop up. And they just kind of like the little prince or something. Or saying it's just like, hey, here I am. And you go, Oh, that was sitting there the whole time, I just didn't know, because I was kind of cruising in a place I became comfortable.
Denise Duffield-Thomas 23:39
Absolutely. And it's totally okay to do a bit of a scattergun approach to that. Because sometimes, sometimes you do need to just work on the surface stuff. And sometimes you need to do the deep stuff, but it all kind of works. I actually say to people, when in doubt, shave your legs. And there is some truth to that, if sometimes you don't know what to do, so you're paralyzed. And I think you can always go and shave your legs and it does shift your energy sometimes. And that could be true for anything, you could say when in doubt. You know, clean your fridge out when in doubt. You know, clean off your computer screen, you know, when you just do something and you go, Oh, I feel so good. Okay, I feel I feel like I've shifted something. Because it is ongoing work. And sometimes people are so scared to look at all of the things and I'm like, we can jump around. That's totally fine. And actually what I do in my money bootcamp, I pick a topic for us to talk about every month. And I never know where it's going to lead us to ever and for sometimes, like, I'll give you an example we talked about let's talk about weddings. Let's talk about weddings this month. And the tentacles that went out for some people it was totally surface because it was like, I've never been married. Cool. What's your like? What's even your relationship to weddings in general and money. So it could just take out this little surface memory of going, oh, yeah, like, you know, I didn't go to someone's wedding because I couldn't afford a present. Oh, okay, cool. It's got something there. But for some people like it has these really deep tentacles of, you know, stories that they heard about weddings or marriage or, you know, deep traumas from generations past or things like that. And so it it, you can just examine it and take what you want from that from a place of curiosity, to curiosity. And I would love to ask you a question, Lisa, who's a question? I've been asking people a lot recently to see what where that goes is. Tell me about your school shoes growing up? Yeah. Yeah. And I would love to hear your school shoes.
Lisa Danylchuk 25:45
Tell me use my school.
Denise Duffield-Thomas 25:48
Tell me about your school shoes growing up.
Lisa Danylchuk 25:50
Okay, so this is what the first memory that comes up, I probably like third fourth grade, I had this really cute black jeans skirt, like gray black jeans skirt that I loved that I wanted to everyday. So I wore it pretty much every day. And then I had like a blue shirt and aquamarine shirt, and a blue green green blue shirt, a blue green shirt and aquamarine shirt. So you can fill in there. They're pretty much all the same thing. And then we had kids kids were popular at the time, that kind of slip on ones. And maybe it was earlier or later that the shoe tie ones came in. But I started writing on my kids with puff paint. And nobody else was doing it at the time. And then all the other kids started writing on their shoes with puff paint. And my I remember my mom and my teacher, oh, she's such a leader. And I was so confused. I was like, What are they talking about? I'm just drawing on my shoes. Like, they're calling me a leader. Like, I don't understand what that means. And you know, I just drew all over my shoes until those puff paints fell off and got another pair and kept doing it. So that's why my first memory of school and shoes, but I love where you're going with this because there's so much richness that could be in there. I mean, I think of a friend of mine always loved the lyric of James Taylor song. She's got diamonds on the soles of her shoes, too. You know that song? Yeah. And I always loved it too, because I knew his shoe story was that, you know, he didn't. He wanted nicer shoes and and in school and people would I think if I've got the story, right would make fun of his shoes. Right. And so when he hears that lyric, she's got diamonds on the soles of her shoes, there's all this connection to it. What's your shoe store?
Denise Duffield-Thomas 27:39
Well, first of all, puff paints. Yes. Yes, that was brought back in memory for sure. The reason why I asked it's just so fascinating, because for some people, there's actually not a lot, you know, I asked this to so many people recently, some people just go oh, I don't know, I just had this, you know, black shiny shoes like everyone else. And, and I can glean little bit even from that to go. Okay, so if money wasn't super talked about in your family, you know, whereas some people, it's, they were so keenly aware of the price of something like that. Yeah. In Australia, we wear uniforms. So you have to wear, you know, generally like black shoes, for example. And so I can tell if someone's, you know, did they go to Catholic school? Do they go to private school, because generally, they would have had to wear like black leather shoes, public schools in Australia, you can kind of wear more jaggery kind of things, but they still have to be black. And for some people, it's like, I was allowed one pair of shoes a year. You know, and I was just keenly aware of those discussions of when school started. For some people, though, it was I had to have the geeky shoes and all the cool kids wore Doc Martens. And it's really fascinating even to see what age people are when they tell me about their shoes. Because for some people, they were again keenly aware of money at too early and age. For some people, they didn't even even know about money until the contrast started with their peers, usually around the teenage time. When it was like this was called this was not cool. And then and then you've got trauma for sure if people going, you know, I had to have elastic bands on my shoes or I had to have, you know, hand me downs or and then it's really interesting things for sometimes birth order. That's another layers to have going. I never got to have the quality or I was the oldest and I had to have really sensible shoes, but by the time my youngest came around, they were allowed to have whatever they wanted. And he just go it's just so much gold. And for me it was one pair of shoes you Hear, they're a little bit big, because mom was like, you need some room, you know, where they put their summon? issue. It's like, it has to be lots of room. So they were like floppy and then they they fit for like two terms. And then final term, they're always really tight. But what came up for me around when I started looking at school at school shoes, I remember on my went to go buy a, a special bra for an evening gown. And it was like a plunger kind of evening gown. And I remember going to the bras or and saying like, you know, do you have special rules for this? And they're like, Oh yeah, we've got this special bra that has like this real punch to it. And it was like a strapless beige bra. And I this is only like, two, three years ago, I was already multimillionaire. And I remember just going, you know, I'd have to beige bras. Wow. Like you can't have two, you get one black bra one beige bar. That's. And it's really fascinating to just to see what you were allowed to have. Yeah, you know, what, what would you like to compare to your peers? Where did you find the first see that contrast? So yeah, that's a fun fun one to ask.
Lisa Danylchuk 31:09
And then what does it mean? If you have to beige brows? Right? Like that's that little okay, if you are gonna get it so you can wear it with this gown? Well, then what are you feeling about yourself? What does that mean about you? And? And how conscious are you of that? Because I think most of us, we either just don't do the thing, because we're like, oh, that's not allowed. Or we don't really unpack Well, why am I not allowed to have to beige bras? Like, whenever my who made that rule? Right?
Denise Duffield-Thomas 31:35
Well, I I find that you people either unknowingly conform, or unknowingly rebel. Yeah. And it's just understanding that and I had a really profound experience when I bought my farm. Because one, I was like, kind of two houses. You know, and for me, it's the same conversation about you kind of do more than two beige bras. I was like, really stretching the limits of like, what am I allowed to have? Okay. And I growing up, I never had bedside tables. Yeah. And it took me well into my 30s to buy bedside tables, and to hang out on the wall. Because we were moved so much as a kid. And so when I bought my farm, I had this big barn. And I started always compulsively buying things. And so what happened was, I love thrifting. Love, love thrifting. And I went into this thrift store, and it was this, like, couch. And it's this particular couch. It's like, wooden arms and returned back. And you know, heavy kind of wood. And the cushions you could take off and I went, Oh, wow, this would be so cool. For the farm. We could paint it white we can get it all recovered. And I was like, This is great. I went into the next thrift store and I saw an identical one. And I went identical. This is cool. I'll buy two couches. And then I was like, how cool would it be if when I had events at my farm, everyone sits on these cool couches rather than chairs. And so I went, I wonder if there's more of these. And someone told me Oh, it's called a Java, whatever. Something. And so I looked on marketplace, and I found two more catches. They're exactly the same. And then I went into this hyperfocus like a collectible picture. Yeah, Pokemon moment. I hired a truck. And for a weekend over weekend, I collected 22 couches. Wow, that's a lot of couches. And each one like we're, you know, it was like $100 Some of them were free. People were like, come and get this couch has been outside forever. And some of them were, you know, like 20 bucks or whatever. And I went, like I literally got 22 couches. And so it was like almost, it's just this weird overcompensation of going I was never want to have. Yeah, so now I'm gonna have everything and there's there's also a something there of rescuing things.
Lisa Danylchuk 34:22
Yeah, these couches are out there and nobody wants them, but I want them and I will give them a home.
Denise Duffield-Thomas 34:28
And I'll make them beautiful. And so they've all been painted, why I found a local seamstress to make new cushions for them. I've never been able to do a big event at the farm because of the pandemic. But I had to really recognize that in myself of going and again, people might listen might go, oh, that's you bragging about being able to spend all this money. But the thing is, I recognize the pattern from when I was a kid. We never had a lot of money. But every now and again my mom would have this lucky windfall, and she would spend it on the most ridiculous things. So we were just in his feast or famine, kind of pattern. And it's almost like the money, the amount of money that you have will magnify those behaviors, but the behaviors are still there, regardless of how much money you have.
Lisa Danylchuk 35:15
And you're repeating. Well, I think another important point is like the stress is so easily always there, no matter how much you have, right, and I've worked in clinics in like, the poorest places in the United States and, and volunteered and you know, what people literally call slums around the world, really low income places, and I've worked with people who are also quite specifically princes and princesses, and the stress and the anxiety and the tension that comes around finances, there's different flavors, for sure. And there's different access to access to resources that's very important to pay attention to. But the stress seems to not go away for a lot of people. And it's from for people who have maybe come from not having a lot to then having a lot or for people who have just grown up with access to a lot of financial resources, there can still be so much stress and tension. And it's just the opposite of this, like, chill, enjoying life that I think most people want, right? Like most people, if they see an advertisement for a car, these people are like out on a joyride with their family or their dog. And they're just enjoying a Sunday afternoon. And we all go, Ah, I want that. So I want that car. But like, we're looking for that. But it seems like wherever we land, there's just this, this gripping and this tension. What what do you think about that?
Denise Duffield-Thomas 36:42
Yeah, absolutely. Money doesn't cure money blocks. That's for sure. And so I think we have to just be vigilant, compassionate to ourselves, cognizant of our passions. And yeah, I think it's just a fascinating conversation really to be in. And that's why I really try and be open about it. And I'm also sometimes straddling that line of going, Yeah, I'm really privileged now. So I'm not denying the fact that I have privilege. I just want to talk honestly and openly about money. Because nobody does. Nobody does. And I always have to remember, recognize my privilege, in that I'm going. So lucky, bitch problem is what I call it. But to also let people know, don't wait for perfection to come before you take action, because you're never going to be perfect, even with more money. So the more that you can recognize that if going, I'm going to be the same person, I'm still going to have fears. Well, maybe I can then take action in my business, because you're not waiting for you to be deserving of it. And that's why I share, you know, all the stuff, all the realities of making money, you know, even talking, I release my tax returns every year. Yeah, because I want people to see, it's just it is just money, money can solve a lot of problems in your life, but also not to be afraid of the bigger numbers. Yeah, you know, I pay 700,000 a year in tax, usually. That's a lot of money. But I actually was terrified about my first year in business. Yeah, because I was thinking I had to deal with all my trauma of growing up in the welfare system. Where bureaucracy was terrifying to my mom. Yes. Because and I had a really strong memory of being in the welfare office, answering questions. You know, feeling like this person had power of my family's ability to eat. I didn't recognize that until I went, I registered my business. I got a free tax meeting in Australia, you can go visit someone at the Australian Tax Office. And I was having a panic attack. Yeah. And this man was just like, tell me about your business. What do you do? You know, and he was like, keep all your receipts. He was like, a perfectly nice, boring, you know, civil servant kind of guy. And I was having a panic attack. I was so scared of this man. And so scared of getting into trouble doing something wrong. I don't even earn a single dollar in my business. And that's when I realized I was like, oh, and I need to go and deal with that. And I think tax is a very, it's a collective trauma for us.
Lisa Danylchuk 39:44
Yeah, there's a lot to explore there. But I love just the possibility of an especially through your journey of it was very terrifying. And then it shifted to oh, wait a minute. Maybe I can pay you said $700,000. You Manuel, you can maybe I can just pay it. Like, maybe I can afford it. Maybe it doesn't hurt my family. Maybe it's okay. Right? It doesn't have to be the stress or pressure point.
Denise Duffield-Thomas 40:11
No, and I am chill about it. Yeah, you know, but there's also things again, if people going, I don't want to pay taxes, because they're also not willing to then look at the behaviors around that fear. So one thing I do is I have a quarterly meeting with my accountant. So we talk about what's coming up or tax, it's never a surprise to me, never comes out of the blue. And then they're like, You owe us this. I pre pay like 40 came up. And then every quarter I catch up, and then at the end of the financial year, I catch up. And but I had to deal with all the fears around looking at my money. Yeah, having conversations about my money. Even just, and I think that's really hard for people. So I had to do that in my first year. Now, it's like, okay, cool, fine. But this, it's not hard paying 700,000. In tax, it was really hard having that meeting with the first tax guy before a single penny. And, you know, we were saying before about how many people would be holding themselves under that 100,000 threshold, when, when I get people to start looking at their money stuff, one of the layers is to look at what's symbolic about where you've stuck. Because for some people, it's completely unconscious, but it's how much they earn in a job. They hated how much their dad earns, how much their partners, how much the richest person they know earns just under a threshold of a consequence, a business license having to charge tax having to register for GST in Australia, which is I think, 70,000 in Australia, and then you have to charge people, extra 10%. And people, they don't even know that they're doing it sometimes. But they are or it could be just a figure in their mind of thinking. He kind of more than that, you know, and that figure could be something that's decades old, from someone said something to you. When I when I started earning more. So I didn't grow up with my dad. But my uncle was kind of the wealthy, generous person in my family, and he was uncle by marriage. And even to the point where when I was living overseas, my grandmother died. And my mom couldn't afford to bring me home, I called my uncle. And it's making me tear up thinking about it. So when. And he was really generous with information too, because as a kid, I just loved hearing about business and talking about business. And one time he took me to his accountants office for his meeting with his cabinet when I was like 16. And I was just always just fascinated by his world. And I remember he was telling me like, he's, you know, Sally was like, 150,000, or something like that. And when I got to 120, I just remember feeling this immense guilt. And I didn't realize why. And I was, so I was exploring, asking myself these questions. And I realized that I felt like I was disrespecting him, emasculating him, taking away his joy and pleasure of being wealthy. Yeah. And then my other side of that was going, well, then, am I the person that everyone's gonna come to you for money? Yeah. And it was like stepping into this new space where it discombobulate and changes power dynamics. And you have to look at that, right? Because it's, especially if you come from a family where it has a very, like, specific pecking order or power order. Yeah. And it's always been like that from centuries of patriarchy. But now, you don't, you can make your own money. You can no one can stop you pretty much. You can do it with a smartphone and some internet. You can do it from your imagination. There's the systems and technology and all that stuff to be able to for us to be able to do it. And it's like discombobulating.
Lisa Danylchuk 44:15
Yeah. Especially when you start to move past one of those thresholds, or you gave so many great examples of these social relationships and connections and how they will show up right? They'll show up like, I can't make more than my uncle or the responsibility piece are people then going to come to me or, and I know a lot of folks in kind of worlds I'm in it's like, well, then if I if I make more than I have to help more people, I have to give it back or I have to right and that's sort of like the guilt piece and that can be a lot of different things. But it's so interesting and I'm wondering because I know you've taught and coached people in so many different ways along these lines are there practices, you go back to sayings that you continue to say Maybe even still to yourself every day, what are some of the themes that help you with that daily practice of working with your, your mindset?
Denise Duffield-Thomas 45:08
So I, I teach a, like a three step process kind of thing. And it's the origin story connects the dots pattern interrupt. So OCP for the truth is you can come at it from really any angle. Sometimes people don't remember things from their childhood. And so then you would look at what's painful in your life right now. So you're almost like connecting the dots bit right in the middle bit. What's painful in your life? Okay, well, let's like, let's go back and see if there's something there a top layer, you need to remember, oh, let's go straight to the pattern interrupter. Because it will clear stuff. Anyway, right? Obviously, you can get more targeted, but it's great to clear it anyway. So a really powerful tool that I love for pattern interrupt to pattern interrupting is emotional freedom, technique, tapping, EFT, it's just such a great general thing that helps you with your nervous system. And then you can get more targeted as you get more specific. So I think slather that on everything. Does Robert it? And then I, I think everything works. You know, I really do. So I would say just throw everything at it. You know, what would feel good to you? Sometimes people love talking therapy, sometimes we will have to go and do some deep, you know, work EMDR or they need to, you know, do something a little bit deeper sometimes. surface clean is good. Sometimes you need deep clean. No, but I think everything works. Sometimes people get really caught up in what's the perfect thing. Yeah, and it's a delay tactic sometimes, isn't it? But like, I want to know what the result is going to be before I commit to something and it's like, okay, well, let's, let's do a bit of EFT and see if we can loosen something. Because remember, it's excavation work, right? Sometimes, the ground is so hard. It's so hard to even get in there. Yeah. And it's like, well, let's just put a little sprinkles stuff on top, let's just, you know, do a little bit of surface stuff. Sometimes that loosens some stuff. But sometimes you don't know where that's gonna go. And you know, I'm I'm not a therapist. So I have to be really careful about where we go in into places. But I heard Will Arnett say this on a podcast recently? Low hanging fruit? Still fruit? Yeah. Still fruits do work. And so it's like, Well, cool. What's what's one thing you can you can talk about or think about? And sometimes, you know, you take away all that. And then you get to some really dark stuff that then you go, now it's time for me to look at that. Yeah.
Lisa Danylchuk 47:45
And now it's time for EMDR, or something that's a little more structured. I mean, the outline you gave feels like almost intro to EMDR. It's like, okay, what's happening now? What does that trace back to? And then sometimes that's enough to kind of go, oh, let me think about it. Let me process this. But sometimes you really need some more structured support to move through what that memory is, what that means, where it's lodged in your body and all that stuff.
Denise Duffield-Thomas 48:09
Absolutely. And that's not something that I can really help people with. But I feel like I'm a bit of a gateway to that. Yeah. But also, let's be real to doing some of that stuff is sometimes really expensive. And hard, and hard. Exactly. And so, you know, I feel like I'm, I still have to do all of that work to you know, I had some incredible trauma growing up. And I'm really privileged now that I can afford therapy, I can afford to go get a diagnosis of ADHD, I can afford medication, I can afford vitamins I can afford, you know, all of the things. And so I'm really trying to get people to deal with all their money stuff, so they can make money. So then they can create whatever they need to create doesn't mean you ask them the perfect, but it's heaps easier with money.
Lisa Danylchuk 49:02
How much do you feel like it's minds? I feel like there are people who write books on mindset work, and they're people who write books on systems. And I'm wondering how much you feel like you talked about earlier, those behavioral pattern, interrupter practices and mindset. Like, I feel like we're talking about both of those here. And what's like the ratio or the overlap, or what do you? I don't know, where do you start? Maybe?
Denise Duffield-Thomas 49:26
Okay, well, I have six planets in Virgo. So for me, it's all about the practicalities of it. Yes. And so whenever I look at a personal development tool, I always go okay, what's, what's the system that we can create? Or how can we reverse engineer it? So it's practical. And so we know confirmation bias is a real thing for our brains. We know that and so fully will we will people will be like the Lord attraction is a universal law. It's woowoo, its energy. It's whatever. For skeptics are like, that's confirmation bias. That is recency bias. That's all of the, you know, all of the things that are. That's how our brains work. So me in the middle going, well, let's do both of those things. So if that is true, that our brains work that way, how can we reverse engineer that? So I use my phone, I have my goal on my lock screen. Because I pick that up a million times a day, it's subliminally going in, I have pop up reminders on my calendar that pop up and say you're a best selling author. And it's all those things that are the repetition. Yeah, that if I had to sit down and meditate, this is where I think I, when I first found out about law of attraction and stuff, I was like, so do I just meditate every day on trying to be a good person? Do I have to be you're in my thoughts? And I was like, Well, I'm not going to sway clearly don't deserve. Good things happened to me. Instead of realizing, well, the repetition of that is just as good. You know, and so I started listening to subliminal audios really young? Actually.
Lisa Danylchuk 51:13
Yeah, yeah. So listen to those. Sleep on them.
Denise Duffield-Thomas 51:17
Yes. And that sounds really works. And again, you can, you can look at it from a weird perspective, we can look at it from a purely practical perspective. And I think I can really straddle both of those sides. And so I always just look at how can you reverse engineer that, you know, I love like, olfactory reminders, and anchors. And so for me, I would burn a particular candle when I was working on my book, but the candle for me represented living by the beach, you know, it's one of those breezy blue candles, you know, from glass house or whatever, that's like Bora Bora, or whatever. And so I would, you know, so for me, that was my anchor to go. I believe that I'm gonna live near the beach one day, I'm smelling it, and I'm working on my thing. And it's all of those things, I think you can you can find a woowoo or incredibly skeptical thing for both. For anything that you do. It's same with trauma work, right? There's some trauma stuff, you have to really see it and understand and think about, and sometimes it's a body somatic thing that you have to release. Yeah, that's like, yeah, which is true.
Lisa Danylchuk 52:28
And we're all going to be different, right? And we have to kind of like you said, you got to find that first place to start and then almost like, trace, it's a little excavation as well. Super fun.
Denise Duffield-Thomas 52:38
Yeah, and sometimes the, you know, the lessons come up again, and again, because they're just gonna come to you. But there'll be in a slightly different way. And so, yeah, I like both. I really like both sides. But it's just what is the practical way. Because if it if it always comes down to deservingness, that's what I know the problem. But you could look at it from so many angles. So one that I was thinking about this morning is this link we have sometimes between weight and money, like our physical appearance of money. And if you were to line up the 100 richest men in the world, they look so different. Their bodies are different. Their degree of handsomeness is different. Their dress sense is different, all those things, but I still find a lot of women have a very particular idea of new weight and money, and they're deserving this. And, and that's rooted in society, you know, of, you know, fat phobia in our society, but also, it's, that's just one leak, you know. And so then that might stop people from being visible or showing up because I think, Well, I'm not worthy of making money. So we've just, we've all really got a look at our own personal stuff around so many different things, you know. And I think that's where, you know, my joy in my work lies is that I can find the money less than anything. Yeah, anything. And I'll just be like, Oh, this is so interesting. Okay, let's, let's talk about it. Yeah, yeah. And just get to that point where it's just not a taboo to talk about, because we would, you know, we talk about so many things in our lives, honestly and openly and find those patterns and find those connections. So why not, why not money. And as we can have more collective power, we can help more people and we can do great things with our money, but not if it's still so secretive and taboo and wrong. And, you know, and we might not be able to change everything in the world. Obviously, you know, there's different levels of privilege, and we can't change everything is totally that the only thing we can change is how we feel about ourselves and our deservingness that's the only thing we've we can even have a little bit of control over it. It's practice.
Lisa Danylchuk 55:03
Definitely. Yeah, you shared something else about being diagnosed with ADHD. And I'm curious because there's this, oh, we don't talk about money. But we also often don't talk about medication and you know, being diagnosed with something that we consider mental health, you know, I really feel like it's all bio psychosocial health, but it's so many different things. But I'm curious how that impacted your business, your sort of toe printer approach. And if that's something I mean, I appreciate you sharing it. And I just feel like there's people out there who could benefit from hearing a little bit about your experience.
Lisa Danylchuk 55:39
Well, I'm, as I said, I love talking about everything. I actually think there's more to do in talking about many menopause than ADHD.
Lisa Danylchuk 55:49
Nice, yeah. Right. Ya know, some good people for that.
Denise Duffield-Thomas 55:52
Yeah. Well, I actually find, too, that there's sometimes like, when I have talked about menopause, I've had people who like, no, no, it's Kundalini rising, or it's a mindset thing. And I think Imagine if we told, you know, young girls, when they start, oh, young people when they start menstruating? No, it's a mindset thing. Because it's just a biological reality, you know, for that's, our bodies work sometimes. But I found with ADHD, I didn't know I had it at a young age, because all my family have it. Yeah, so two of my cousins were medicated, but they were that typical. 1980s 90s naughty boys. And it was also not seen as a it was seen as a class thing. You know, my mom was a single mom, my Auntie's were single moms, we lived in government housing, it was just seen as like a, you know, kids on welfare, raise badly probably. And for me, I wasn't naughty. I just wanted to read 20 hours a week and forgot my bus pass every day and never knew what room I was supposed to be in. And, but I got kind of good grades. But I just felt always, like I was behind, or I didn't know where I was supposed to be, I learned to improvise very quickly. Because we would get, you know, a classroom with your assignment guys, or we've got a test. And I would have to learn to read a page in like seconds. So I learned to speed read, I learned to fake it to make it. But underneath, I was always so anxious. Something that I think really helped me as well as I got into dancing really early. So I learned the show must go on. Yeah, you know, and it was like, put your makeup on, put your costume on, you know, your costumes that we bomb, you leave it something, you know, the music's screwed up. And so I think a lot of people always saw me as that calm person. But underneath, I was sweaty, anxious, you know, racing heart rate all the time. And just feeling like there's something wrong with me again, but I actually saw that as well. That's because my mom's a single mom, and we don't have much money, we move around a lot. Right. And so I didn't get diagnosed until you know, at 42. And so looking back the lens of my life and going well, my mom had it too. And that's why she picked me up late from dancing, not because she didn't care about me. It's because it's really hard to remember stuff like that. And even though I am so like, many more times wealthier than my mom is I've got, I have to remember, like Mark will be like, you'll pick up the kids from school. I am. And so I have compassion for my mom. Now. I have compassion for myself. It's completely flipped, how I perceive certain things from my childhood that I took personally or internalize that I wasn't good enough. It's been a very strange thing, even again, I don't mind talking about this. But even I've lost a lot of weight since being diagnosed, because I would mindlessly eat. And, you know, that was a coping mechanism for me. And the fact that my weight has changed now makes me look back and go, Well, I never pursued dancing because I couldn't keep my weight under control. And I had this perception of myself as being you know, a bigger person. And and it's very strange thing going. I'm not I'm actually not meant to you know, I'm actually a small person and it's even when I go into shops now and I'll, I'll like grab something and they'll go Oh, no, you You're the size and I go, No, I'm not. And it's the stain of and also, because there was definitely traumas, and unsafe situations, I always felt like I had to be bigger than I was. Yeah, and older and mature as a protection mechanism. And so it has this vulnerability now of going, I'm actually a small person, because I'm a short, I'm five foot four. I'm totally my family. By the way, everyone, my family is very small. And, but I felt like I was bigger than everyone else. You know, it's very, very, very strange. Medication has been a real gift to me. Because I think I really struggled maybe the last couple of years, because I had so many ideas and things I wanted to do. And I really struggled to start things and finish them. Yeah, and there's a real pain in that real pain. I actually don't think I would have been diagnosed if not further pandemic. Interesting. Yeah. Because I had a lot of coping mechanisms I didn't realize I had one was travel. Yes, and variety. And variety, basically. And I didn't have that. And so I, I probably should have had anti anxiety medication way earlier in my life, but I had a massive stigma around it. of, you know, you just, you Soldier On, and you suck it up. And, and I think that's, again, from growing up with not much money because you had to be really sick to go to a doctor.
Lisa Danylchuk 1:01:36
Right? It had to be life. Otherwise, the bill is going to be too high. Yeah.
Denise Duffield-Thomas 1:01:42
Absolutely. Even in Australia, where, you know, we have sort of socialized medicine a little bit. But I remember it was probably $30 to go see doctor as a kid, and you would get some back. But back in the 90s. You get it back in like three weeks. It wasn't instant, like it is now. And I remember just always my mom just like looking at me going. Like, how bad is it? Yeah, you know, how bad is it. And I developed trichotillomania as a kid too, which is a coping mechanism for sure. And I remember my mom didn't take me to the doctor for it. Because I know now she was so afraid of being seen as a bad parent. Right. And, you know, getting the attention of Child Protective Services or being you know, us being taken away from her that she actually ignored things like that, because she felt like it would, it would be too exposing, you know, but I internalized that of going well, I'm not worthy of being taken care of. I'm not worthy of spending money on. Yeah, and so even just now sometimes still, I have to you know, as I said, with the bra example, but even just taking, you know, taking medication. It's like it was a real thing for me to just be like, I'm allowed to just do that.
Lisa Danylchuk 1:03:03
I really appreciate that you share, you know, and I don't know you're exactly you're, you're a multimillionaire at this point. I'm gonna write in that. Yeah. Okay. And you share things like, this is what a multi millionaire looks like, there's chips in the car, and there's, there's medication, there's therapy, therapy, there's support, there's so many things that I think kind of like when you're talking through your child self, oh, well, if I have a bigger body, I can't be a dancer. I mean, I remember going to ballet and the teacher telling me to tuck my butt and tuck my butt. And I was like, That's it. That's all that that's as far as it goes. And being like six, and feeling you know that body shaman, I mean, that's like a whole other topic we could dive into with more time. But there's so much there in terms of how we think we need to look. And I'd be interested to see, you know, the wealthiest 100 women in the world and how much more uniform and imagine, they'd look compared to the men. And I'd be interested in seeing, you know, where to nine non binary folks fit in that and all of all of that, but there's so much meaning we make and a lot of the work that I hear you doing is teasing that apart, right? And going, No, actually it's okay, I can be this and be successful or be wealthy or be in a leadership role or whatever, whatever that is. So I really appreciate you sharing that because I think we need that level of vulnerability and those examples to go, Oh, that was this little ceiling carry, I was carrying around with me that I had to resolve this or that before I would be happy or be successful or be able to pay my bills or be able to, you know, pay the taxes or whatever the fear and that tension. I mean, there's so many little tension points we can carry around like clouds hovering around us. But I feel like when you tell those stories, it just dispels it. So I really appreciate that.
Denise Duffield-Thomas 1:04:56
Well, I find it I find it really fun, too. Get that. And I kind of was always that way as a kid of you know, I just talked about stuff, you know, and sometimes in a kind of a crude way, I don't know if that is an ADHD thing as well. We've just been kind of a bit open about bodily functions and stuff. And so yeah, I just love talking about money.
Lisa Danylchuk 1:05:23
Thanks so much for listening. My hope is that you walk away from these episodes feeling supported, and like you have a place to come to find the hope and inspiration you need to take your next small step forward. For more information and resources, please visit howwecanheal.com There you'll find tons of helpful resources and the full transcript of each show. Thanks so much for your messages, feedback and ideas about the podcast. I love hearing from you and I so appreciate your support. There are lots of ways you can support the show and I'm grateful for every little bit of love you share. If you love the show, please leave us a review on Apple, Spotify, Audible or wherever you get your podcasts. You can also subscribe on YouTube to get updates every week. You can always visit howwecanheal.com/podcast to share your thoughts and ideas I love hearing from you. So keep your comments coming. If you'd like to stay connected in between episodes, you can also text me text the word heal to 888-858-0811. That's 888-858-0811. That number has a lot of eights in it. I'll send you some inspiration and support a few times a month and you can text me back there too. Before we wrap up, I want to be clear that this podcast isn't offering any prescriptions. It's not advice or any kind of diagnosis. Your decisions are in your hands. And we encourage you to consult with any relevant health care professionals you may need to support you through your unique path of healing. I'd also like to send thanks to our guests today to Christine O'Donnell and Celine Baumgartner of Bright Sighted Podcasting, and to everyone who helps support this podcast directly and indirectly. Alex, thanks for taking the dogs out while I record. Last week, I'd love to give a shout out to my big brother man who passed away in 2002. He wrote this music and it makes my heart so happy to share it with you now.
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