Disassociation comes in different forms and affects people in different ways. Our guest, Kathy Steele, has been treating people suffering from disassociation since the 1980s.
Kathy is a Past President and Fellow of the International Society for the Study of Trauma and Dissociation (ISSTD), and has also served on the Board of the International Society for Traumatic Stress Studies (ISTSS). She even helped develop treatment guidelines for Complex Post-traumatic Stress Disorder.
Her vast work has earned her a number of awards, and has led to her becoming a sought-after consultant, supervisor, and international lecturer on topics related to trauma, dissociation, attachment, and psychotherapy.
Kathy shares her humor, compassion, and vast experience with us in this episode.
Kathy Steele Bio:
Kathy Steele has been in private practice since 1985, and with Metropolitan Psychotherapy Associates in Atlanta, Georgia since 1988. She was Clinical Director of Metropolitan Counseling Services, a non- profit psychotherapy and training center until 2016. Kathy received her undergraduate degree from the University of South Carolina and completed her graduate work at Emory University.
She is a Past President and Fellow of the International Society for the Study of Trauma and Dissociation (ISSTD), and has also served two terms on the Board of the International Society for Traumatic Stress Studies (ISTSS). Kathy served on the International Task Force that developed treatment guidelines for Dissociative Disorders, and on the Joint International Task Force that has developed treatment guidelines for Complex Post-traumatic Stress Disorder.
She has received a number of awards for her work, including the Lifetime Achievement Award from ISSTD, an Emory University Distinguished Alumni Award, and the Cornelia B. Wilbur Award for Outstanding Clinical Contributions from ISSTD.
Kathy is known for her humor, compassion, respect, and depth of knowledge as a clinician and teacher, and for her capacity to present complex issues in easily understood and clear ways. She is sought as a consultant and supervisor, and as an international lecturer on topics related to trauma, dissociation, attachment, and psychotherapy. She has (co)authored numerous book chapters, peer reviewed journal articles, and three books with her colleagues.
This episode was produced by Bright Sighted Podcasting
FULL TRANSCRIPT BELOW
- This transcript was auto-generated
Lisa Danylchuk 0:02
Welcome to the How we can heal podcast. My name is Lisa Danylchuk and I'm a psychotherapist specializing in complex trauma treatment. I'm a graduate of UCLA and Harvard University, and I'm thrilled to share these reflections on how we can heal with you today.
Today, our guest is Kathy Steele. Kathy Steele has been in private practice since 1985. And with metropolitan psychotherapy associates in Atlanta, Georgia since 1988. She was Clinical Director of Metropolitan counseling services, a nonprofit psychotherapy and training center until 2016. Kathy received her undergraduate degree from the University of South Carolina and completed her graduate work at Emory University. She's a past president and fellow of the International Society for the Study of trauma and dissociation or ISS TD, and has also served two terms on the board of the International Society for traumatic stress studies is T S. S. Kathy served on the international task force that developed treatment guidelines for dissociative disorders. And on the joint international task force that developed treatment guidelines for complex Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. Kathy is known for her humor, compassion, respect, and depth of knowledge as a clinician and teacher. And for her capacity to present complex issues and easily understood and clear ways. She sought out as a consultant and supervisor, and as an international lecturer on topics related to trauma, dissociation, attachment, and psychotherapy. She has co authored numerous book chapters, peer reviewed journal articles, and three books with her colleagues, Kathy and I first connected through our shared time at istd conferences. And I've always appreciated her clarity, humor and kindness. I'm elated to share her with you today. So let's get going and welcome Kathy to the show. Kathy Steele, Welcome to the How we can heal podcast and so excited to have you here.
Unknown Speaker 1:58
Thank you for having me, Lisa. I'm excited to
Lisa Danylchuk 2:01
Yeah, and I'm sure there's plenty of folks listening who know you and know your work well. And there might be some who are just getting introduced to it. So I feel like I have this gem that I can just share and share some of that shine with them. And so I've been familiar with your work for a long, long time, and the writing and the presentations for many years you've done on dissociation and trauma. And I've never known how you got into the work and when you first learned about it. And I feel like there's people that are just starting to learn about dissociation now. And I know folks like you who learned about it a long time ago. So what was that like?
Speaker 2 2:37
Well, it was interesting, it was quite a different time. And on the one hand, this was in the early 1980s. Part of what was happening during that time was this sort of up swelling of recognition of the fact that, you know, one in four women and were were sexually abused in some way. And so that was the background for what what happened for me. And of course, like, like many people, I fell into this in a sort of accidental and serendipitous way. The first thing was that I had just started private practice and sort of wanted to get to know other people in the community. And so I volunteered like really blindly for to run this one year interest group, I had no idea of what in the world was happening. This was even before Christmas or twice, first book on healing the incest wound, right? Really early. But there was a group that was running these one year, this organization was running these one year groups, and they were offering some supervision. And I had the experience of meeting with the group members to sort of see if they'd be a good fit for the group. And I remember one person in particular ended up on the floor, sucking her thumb and I had never seen that before. I had no idea what that was. Now I go oh, yeah, of course. You know, but at the time, it was quite shocking. And fortunately, the the people who were supervisors there had some, some inkling about this. And they they really weren't talking about di D so much, but they were talking about the Wounded Child and you know, there was dissociation going on. And so that's how I got into it. And In my first one of my first private practice, clients turned out to be di D. I thought she was psychotically depressed with these characters, she was hallucinating. But it turned out that she was she was di D. And so by the seat of my pants, I was flying blind and doing the best I could. I got in a supervision group with some of the really early folks who were doing the ID work and made my first debut at the ISS TD conference in 1986.
Lisa Danylchuk 5:37
When I was away six years old, I wasn't quite at the conferences yet. Give me 10 more years.
Speaker 2 5:44
That is funny. It feels like yesterday, and it feels like a lifetime. So it's time is weird.
Lisa Danylchuk 5:51
I bet it isn't that way. Yeah. So what was the journey like for you to start teaching? I know a lot of folks in this field, there's just a need. And once you know something, you want to share it? What was that trajectory like for you?
Speaker 2 6:06
Well, it was really wonderful. I think I'll talk about my own personal experience. I have always loved teaching. And actually thought I would be a teacher and instead became a nurse who became a psychotherapist who became a teacher. So so it was sort of this roundabout thing. So I liked it. And I found some wonderful mentors in is his TD, who encouraged me to write, to give some presentations, I was so anxious and nervous, of course, as we all are when we first started out, but I remember that support of these, these people that I thought were, you know, way up here was was really wonderful. And it was instrumental in helping me get the confidence to get out there and to try things with them, and kind of get my feet on the ground with it. So I would say those mentors are really important and, and I feel a responsibility as an older clinician to offer that to as many people as I can. Because it's it really facilitates the therapist development.
Lisa Danylchuk 7:25
That's one of the things I so appreciate about istd. And I'm sure this exists in other places, but it does, it does feel a little bit unique, particularly in academia, where there's a real sense of leaning towards younger generations and going Yes, you've got this you're doing it like to help build that confidence that I think most people need in that transition from what is happening in front of me, I have no idea what this is to Okay, now I have a sense of what this is. Now I understand it somewhat. Let me start talking about it. There's that that sort of crisis of confidence can come up or just for anyone who's public speaking right, standing in front of a big group. And so yeah, try that. See, Hort I think is, is so valuable. And I see it across ISS TD with people, like you said that it's always been that way, ya know, their names from publications or books or and then you just meet them, and they're so humble and encouraging. And, and I find that so refreshing and helpful. For everyone, right? Because the more people get help.
Speaker 2 8:30
That's right. And that's how you become an expert and a good therapist. Yeah.
Lisa Danylchuk 8:35
So you've written a ton. And some pretty, I would say, you've written on complex topics, I love your presentations, I'd have to say because you'll have a really complex, you know, some something to communicate, and then there'll be this slide of like, a flamingo with feathers sticking out. Teach One thing today, I was like, Oh, I'm gonna Kathy but we're not gonna have any slides. Right. But you've written a lot you've taught all over the world. And I'm curious how you just today, as you sit here now would define dissociation to folks listening? My
Speaker 2 9:15
gosh, you know, this is this is not a short conversation, is it? I think I've come to understand that almost everybody has their own definition of dissociation. And, and I have mine. Right. So I'll share mine, which of course, I think is the right one, but everybody has a little bit different perspective on it. And and I think, because we have over the course of the history of dissociation, we've incorporated so many different ideas that we keep adding to the definition instead of keeping it narrow. and some of my colleagues have really argued for keeping it narrow, I think the, you know, the barn door has closed on that one. So I sort of tried to divide it up into four parts based on what what treatment approach is going to work, right? Because not all dissociation is the same. And so the first kind of dissociation that we talk about it's most common is the checking out spacing out, not being present. And of course, the thing we focus on most with that in terms of treatment is mindfulness. Being present grounding, you know, whether that's somatically, or using the ventral, the ventral vagal system, all kinds of ways to get people grounded. The second way people talk about dissociation, and I'm talking about this in the literature is sort of the dorsal vagal shutdown, right? I think Steven Porges talks about it as dissociation. And Allan Schore talks about it as dissociation. It really is a physiological condition, in which you're just not in contact with, you know, the present moment. But you know, the treatment of that, of course, is to work with that physiological shutdown somatically. And we often use the polyvagal theory to do that, and they're there lots of ways to, to get people more activated, and in their window of tolerance. So that's the second one. The third one is this murky, murky world of depersonalization and derealization? Yes, which is kind of like a perceptual issue. If we think about checking out that's more cognitive and attentive. But depersonalization is more a perceptual problem, like I perceive myself as not being real, or the world around me is not being real, that kind of thing. I think the jury's still out on on a totally effective way to treat depersonalization disorder. But it seems to involve all of the components that we're familiar with, like mindfulness, getting present in the body, doing learning, emotional tolerance and regulation, those kinds of things. And then we've got the id like phenomenon over here, which is all about parts. Yeah. And so I just think that's a more encompassing type of dissociation, where you've not just got attention or perception, you've also got emotion, and you've even got sense of self that is dissociated. And that requires treatment that involves all of the other treatments plus, working with the parts to improve integration.
Lisa Danylchuk 13:10
Yes, I really appreciate how you've organized it, because you can just breaking it down into those four parts. I mean, sometimes as you've just said, all four are alive. And so you're working with
Speaker 2 13:21
MIT, and they're often alive in the same client. Right? So yeah, I think for people who have di, D, they have other of those experiences all the time, because they're kind of some, they're substrates of the the D ID. Yeah.
Lisa Danylchuk 13:39
So with all of that understanding, what do you are you still in private practice? Or have you do something? What do you still find tricky, about dissociation when you're sitting with it?
Speaker 2 13:53
Well, I think it's the avoidance, right? And even if we think about comorbidity, like personality disorders, I don't really like that term, could talk about personality accommodations, and in some way, but But you know, even those are all about avoidance. And so I've sort of stripped it down to this. Maybe it's too simplistic, but the, the biggest struggle in dissociation is avoidance, whether that's avoidance of of your own inner experience, avoidance of relationship, avoidance of what's external in your life presently, or avoidance of the trauma. Yeah, you know, that's the tricky part. And I think the, the other hardest part, for me, and I think for most therapists are the relational enactments that happen in trauma which which can occur without dissociation and certainly, yes, yeah, no.
Lisa Danylchuk 14:58
I agree in that the It the avoidance is such a challenging thing to work with. And I see this push pull between, you know, treatments that want to really get in there. Let's go to the root, let's pull it up, let's find it, let's fix it, which is understandable. Of course, we all want to fix it, right? client wants to fix it, therapist wants to fix it, everyone wants people to feel better. But then there's this edge. And this is probably what I find most challenging to navigate, especially when you're speaking in general terms, I think it's a little more approachable when you have a person in front of you to try to find this edge. But even then, very challenging of like, what's enough for today? Right? We're we're not in avoidance, and we're not in dive into the trauma and get completely overwhelmed by it. But how do we determine together? What's an appropriate chunk, and I feel like that is such an ongoing process as a therapist sitting with someone because you start to feel, you know, if there's a few weeks in a row where something's not being addressed, it starts to feel kind of dull or not alive, or there's too much being addressed. Maybe it's a swift enactment, or calls in between, or some kind of sense of things exploding. So I'm wondering if you've developed like, what has contributed to your sense of that, and finding that pace or rhythm. And I think even when we say pace, we assume oh, it's gonna be like, I'm running a marathon, and I'm at a nine minute mile, and I keep going at that. Changing?
Speaker 2 16:33
Yeah, yeah, I have a lot of thoughts on this. And one is what I've, I've mostly learned, I've learned from falling off that edge, you know, with a client and learning. You know, if I don't slow down here, there's going to be trouble. But I think, you know, kind of taking up a historical overview of trauma. There has been debate since time immemorial, when when people have written about trauma, about whether we go in and do the trauma work, or whether we don't do the trauma work. And that's kind of been the dividing line, right. And if you look at military psychiatry, they're always going back and forth with this idea. And so the idea now about whether people need stabilization or not, it to me is a little bit of a straw man, because every client is different. So I would, I would never say every client needs stabilization, or no clients need stabilization, but it depends on the client. It depends on the therapist, how good is the therapist in helping the client contain, you know, and process at the same time and be able to hold that? How strong is the relationship? Yes. And you know, there is this fact with developmental trauma that people have grown up some some clients have grown up without adequate regulatory skills or skills to reflect. And, and it's really hard to move into heavy duty trauma work with them, because they end up, you know, not doing well. And we learned that oh, boy, did we ever learn that with di D clients, back when I first started, because the treatment at the time was to go for the memories and go for the parts and you dig in there. And it was in some cases, disasters. And part of that was the relational aspect of not understanding how easily dependency can get kicked up with clients, especially with the child parts. And you know, now we've we've kind of got a backlash, like, only work with the adult, not the child parts. And again, that's too black and white. For me, I really like this approach of what is going to work with this person, this human being in front of me, that may not have worked for the person before.
Lisa Danylchuk 19:24
And I could see how if neglect or involved as it often is that that could become an enactment of neglect, as well. Absolutely. We're always trying to trace how is what's happening in this relationship, similar or the same dynamic as what happened early on. Right? Even when we have so much training and so many degrees. Going at a minute, this feels familiar, or this seems like a pattern that I'm not normally in but keeps happening here
Speaker 2 19:58
is fair challenging and you never, I mean, I guess you get better at recognizing it. But it's hard to work your way back out of it all the time. And I've even had this more recent thought, and it's thinking about the stabilization piece and the avoidance piece about what reenact, are we reenacting something, when we're basically saying to the client, you're avoiding, you're avoiding, you're avoiding go go go, you know, what have their own will, is in there, and their own pace. And, you know, sometimes we have the opposite problem of we seek a client is going too fast, and we're trying to slow them down. It's just really tricky. You know, in terms of what we believe about what we're doing, it's really interesting to think about, it really
Lisa Danylchuk 20:56
is. And as you're talking, I keep coming back to the thought of the adaptation, right, that this, at some point, at least, was or perhaps remains a functional way to cope with something potentially horrific or life threatening. And so when you fold that in, there's a lot of potential pressure on the therapist or on on that sequence of how things go.
Speaker 2 21:24
Yeah, and I think clients also certainly, most certainly have a say in how things go, you know, what are they wanting from therapy? Some clients don't want to integrate? And so what does that mean? And first of all, how do we find integration? That's another issue. But, you know, what does that mean in terms of, of, of therapy and our ideas about what good therapy is or what what is helpful to people? It's very tricky.
Lisa Danylchuk 21:57
So you've also done a lot of consultation work and supporting other therapists and training other therapists are there other common mistakes you see people making with dissociation and di D?
Speaker 2 22:12
I think one of the most common is getting in over your head with boundaries and rescue. It's one of the most common experiences that people have, you know, the the pull of, of wanting to fix things or feeling responsible. And rather than helping the client hold that responsibility, it's not like, I don't want to say to the client, go do that yourself. That's not what I mean. But the shared responsibility is, is really important. I talk about it in terms of collaboration, so that I think, missing the avoidance strategies or defenses, if we could call them and, and trying to either bust through them or go around them, instead of really seeing avoidance strategies as protective. And to understand what the client is protecting, and how we could work with that in a compassionate and collaborative manner.
Lisa Danylchuk 23:25
That's another edge right there, right. There, and let's get in there, but not too far, not
Speaker 2 23:35
too far. I often visualize work with highly dissociative clients as kind of a a spiral where we begin at the outer edges of avoidance and gradually gradually moving in working that avoidance in like, almost like working a piece of clay and creating something that's a little bit different for the client to be able to go a little deeper, a little deeper, a little deeper.
Lisa Danylchuk 24:05
Is that spiral on the cover of one of your books? Or am I just imagining that oh,
Speaker 2 24:09
it's got one of them has a little circle II type of thing on it. So yeah.
Lisa Danylchuk 24:16
I love that and working it like a like a ball of clay. So there's, you know, I think in my mind, and in your mind, there's a clear connection between post traumatic stress, trauma dissociation, as you said, we've broadened out the definition of dissociation. Isn't this nice? clean cut? I don't need that anymore, if it ever was. So what do you wish people understood about the relationship between post traumatic stress and trauma and dissociation?
Speaker 2 24:49
Well, I guess in my mind that it's just all on a continuum, that it's dissociation is not something weird, or fantastical. I'm talking now about di D, because that's the thing that tends to go freaks people out or it gets them overly fascinated. It's like, well, you know, it just seems like a normal variation, more extreme variation of what we all experience with ego states, that I'm not saying that dissociative parts are exactly the same as ego states, I think there's a lot more avoidance a lot more complexity to that, but that I think they probably arise out of ego states. And that it's just a very extreme form of post traumatic stress disorder. Yes. Yes. You know, with developmental difficulties, because of the type of trauma it's always about relational trauma with di D, I'm not sure I've ever seen a client with di D that didn't have relational trauma. Yeah, I don't think so.
Lisa Danylchuk 26:03
Yeah, that piece is so important. And I think it is important to see this spectrum. Because what I've seen a lot is figuring out through research or practice what works well, for folks who maybe don't have as much of the developmental trauma or don't have as many dissociative presentations, and then that becoming, this is what we do with post traumatic stress. And the challenge with that is then who's not getting the treatment that's appropriate for them, right. It's the people who've often been through the most horrific things, and the most life threatening experiences. And so we want to, I hope to through this podcast to just spread that awareness out a little more, so we can, okay, let's hold the full gamut of it. So we can take a look and say, Where is this person I'm supporting, falling, and then intervene or support or build that collaboration in a way that's really effective. Rather than thinking, I treated this one person who had a lot of supports in childhood and doesn't need a lot of stabilization. And it works so well. And then I tried it with this other person, and what's the difference? But I think when we zoom out, and we get this, we go, Oh, of course, that's the difference. It makes so much sense. It's hard to unsee I think once you see it.
Speaker 2 27:21
And I think one of the you know, we've been talking about edges that we walk one of the edges is, is this idea that you have to be a big expert in order to treat the ID. I have to tell you, I started not knowing anything, did I make mistakes, of course, I made mistakes, right? But I learned and so I'm really much more inclined to work with people who've who've therapists who've never seen a client or things they've never seen a DI D client. And so you can do this. If you do good psychotherapy, and we add in a little bit extra. You're gonna do fine. Right? It's not so so very different, I think.
Lisa Danylchuk 28:09
Yeah. But people do get afraid of it, right? Because often it's not hot in their training program. And then they come upon it and private practice or wherever they are in a clinic. And and it can feel scary and overwhelming, especially when it's showing up, as you said earlier, like psychotic or schizophrenic symptoms. And there's confusion around that, depending on the system you're in some people might understand that as dissociation or might not. And so there's there's complexity even in terms of systems or politics or our collective understanding. But it's possible, right? It's definitely possible for people to work, it's
Speaker 2 28:47
totally possible. And I think what I always return to in my teaching, is the basic foundation for working with any kind of client who's been traumatized is good, solid psychotherapy and understanding of psychotherapeutic principles. And then you add to that, if you don't have that, I think things fall apart a little bit sometimes because you've got this technique or this approach that's only trauma informed, but you don't have the whole picture. And that can be a problem. So I think getting that basic psychotherapy foundation is really, really important.
Lisa Danylchuk 29:34
Now 100% So you've worked with a ton of people and trained a lot of clinicians. I'm wondering if you have an example of when a clinical treatment experience went well, right. This could be a long term or short term, wondering
Speaker 2 29:50
with somebody I supervised or for myself,
Lisa Danylchuk 29:54
either way, just a story of that folks can hear of what worked Yeah, because this can feel really to be an overwhelming and you're looking for edges and you can't find them. So what what have you seen work? Well, it sounds like that psychotherapeutic relationship foundation. Super important. And just for folks who are looking for a little direction of how can this work? And I'm in the middle of it, where is it going, which is going to be different for each client. And you know, everyone's unique. But curious if you have a story.
Speaker 2 30:34
Well, I have a couple of stories in mind. The first one is, is a client who was referred to me by someone who had been treating her and had, you know, she had developed a dependency on this person. So every time the clinician went out of town, the client had to be hospitalized. She had 42 hospitalizations under her belt by the time I saw her. So I didn't really know what was happening there. But the the most difficult symptom is that she would get into a flashback with a part that she called the little girl, right, she was probably Oh, as Dee Dee, not the ID map somewhere on that continuum. And then she would go into this total dorsal vagal shutdown and be completely unresponsive, and couldn't get her to leave the office, she would be in the bathroom and the door was locked, and she was out in the bathroom, that kind of thing. So it was quite difficult to work with at first. But the first thing I did was try to develop a relationship with sort of her adult self who wasn't very present in the situation. Because the little girl part was often very present, but was in this such shutdown state. It was just couldn't get to him. So we spent some sessions just talking about her daily life, and she got more and more animated. And then we started talking about what could she notice just before she went into this dorsal vagal slide? Yes. So we get little wedges in there. And she ended up saying, you know, the, the little girl wants to tell me the story. But she wants to tell all the details, and I can't hear them. Yeah, so we talked about the little girl giving a headline? And would it be okay, if she just got the headline of what happened? She said, Oh, I already have the headline, I said, does is the little girl satisfied with that. And so we we created some communication to resolve that conflict that the little girl wanted the client to relive every single moment of the trauma as a kind of way to be acknowledged. And we worked that through so that the headline was sufficient. And we work to get the little girl more involved in present day life, rather than going back and trying to do trauma work. And for this particular client that did the trick. Nice. I mean, it took a year and a half. But it but I have to say since she saw me, she never had another hospitalization after 42. So part of that was the relational piece. Right. And part of it was that I think the other clinician just didn't know how to deal with the shutdown, and kept thinking if I just keep going for the trauma. That's the key. And so it's a great learning case about what about the trauma do you need to know do you knew every single detail just the headline? It depends? Yeah, right. And for this client, the details were too much. Yes. And then
Lisa Danylchuk 34:34
your negotiation between right to two people.
Speaker 2 34:41
And me and the client? Yeah, no. Yeah. Because she was motivated not to go back to the hospital. Yes. And it was it was lovely, because in another four years, she had completely integrated. Wow, and you It's doing beautifully. I mean, this was probably 20 something years ago, she she sends me a Christmas card every year and it's doing really well. Yeah,
Lisa Danylchuk 35:09
yes. Yeah, that's great to hear, I think for folks who are therapists or, you know, any kind of mental health support, that are working with folks in the middle, right, I'm sure that year and a half felt like it
Speaker 2 35:22
was tough. I was I was worried like, are we gonna be able to get through this? But she did, she really did.
Lisa Danylchuk 35:31
And the ongoing presence and relationship and negotiation around, okay, everyone's needs here are important. And let's figure out okay, the headline, is that enough? Do we need a subheading? Do we need like, what, what's enough for both parts to feel included, to feel validated to feel seen to communicate what they need to communicate in a way that, you know, others can receive it? Because otherwise, again, it sort of turns into this tug of war? Right? When you have all the details, No, shut down. And then you're in that dance, which 42 hospitalizations later is not fun?
Speaker 2 36:10
I know. It's not fun. Yeah. It was. And, of course, many times in hospitals, she didn't have a good experience. So it just reinforced the difficulty.
Lisa Danylchuk 36:22
And it's great that you found that motivation piece of while the hospitals a place to go when there's serious lack of safety and serious concerns. And and it's an experience to try to heal from after too so.
Speaker 2 36:37
Right. Right. And and I think one of the things that I said early on to her was that I didn't think she needed to be hospitalized for the shutdown, as long as she was in a safe place. And her partner made sure she was in a safe place. And I said, it's okay, that that happens here. But I have to stop the session on time. And so we need to negotiate and figure that out, too. And it didn't take too long for her to be able to learn to control it enough so that she could leave the session. Yeah. And she trusted me that I wasn't going to call the ambulance, which is what had happened before. And she really didn't want that. And I said, that's fine. I don't want to. And we still have to find a way to end the session on time. And so we worked really hard together to make that happen.
Lisa Danylchuk 37:38
It's interesting, I've been watching, I don't know if you've seen I think it's on Apple TV, the series shrinking. It's pretty funny. It's one of my favorite representations of therapists I've seen on TV. But you know, there's a lot of jokes around. And that's our time for today. To wrap up the podcast, I was recording, I heard myself going I'm noticing the time and the things we say
Unknown Speaker 38:02
but as you see reality,
Lisa Danylchuk 38:05
as you're describing this that time, that reality of of the appointment and time constraint, I think some therapists and I felt this before Phil, Phil limited by that and feel like, Oh, we're just getting into this. And but I've heard you speak about this before of how important navigating that and working with it. Like how healing that can really be to say, yeah, we can. And sometimes that can contribute to this kind of what's our pace, right? We need to be able to wrap up and for you to be able to walk
Speaker 2 38:40
out to built in pacing. Yeah,
Lisa Danylchuk 38:44
feeling okay, enough to go to your car and drive home or do the next thing you need to do. And so there's a sometimes a struggle with that, you know, how do we wrap up on time? How do we contain all this material? How do we observe someone's state and, you know, support that transition if need be into a different place. And that's, that's a lot to navigate.
Speaker 2 39:10
It is a lot and especially for the therapist who might have their own challenges with timekeeping. You know what people do? But But I think doing things like setting a little mindful chime on your phone 10 minutes before the end of the session, making sure that the at least the therapist isn't diving into something in the last 10 or 15 minutes that Richard Kluft talked about the rule of thirds. I don't know if he made that up or if he got that from somewhere. But for sure, the thirds aren't even components of the session. But the first the first part of the session, you sort of chit chat, how are you what's going on and you get Get into the work. Second, third, you do the work. And the last third, you're wrapping up reconstituting, kind of making a plan if you need to, that has been really helpful, I think for for therapists to to understand, so that there's a rhythm. And maybe it's an enforced rhythm, but it's a rhythm nevertheless. And the one thing I know having grant young grandchildren right now is that they thrive on boundaries and structure, lots of love, but lots of boundaries and structure with time and organization and limits on things. So I think I have really appreciated the time boundaries, not only for the client, but sometimes also for myself, right? There's a beginning, middle and end to every session
Lisa Danylchuk 40:55
now. And I had a client early on, I've taken to being very transparent about that process and talking with folks about what is the wrap up feel like and how do you feel after and it's great. And it's been so helpful, right? Early on, I had a client who would say, This isn't like, this isn't enough wrap up time, right? Like, I'm leaving, and I can't get back to work, or I, you know, feel dysregulated or overwhelmed. And so having that communication open around? Do you need more wrap up time today? And so even to this day, I have clients who are like, Okay, let's start wrapping up now. We might be 35 minutes, and that's fine. They're like, and okay, that's good. Let's start, let's start our wrap up process. And I think of that in terms of stabilization, I think of that in terms of resourcing and all these things. But that explicit communication around it, I found so valuable. And that's not something we're always trained in.
Speaker 2 42:02
Right. And I think, you know, just living life as a human being, there is this dipping in and out of intensity, that that is necessary for all of us, and the sort of waxing and waning of paying attention to something that's disturbing or upsetting. And then moving into daily life and moving back to it there. There is a flow might be an uneven flow, but there's a flow to it. And I think the time boundaries around therapy are good practice for that, that flow that's necessary for daily life.
Lisa Danylchuk 42:44
And when there's a lot of collective trauma being processed, right, a lot of I found myself in the last handful of years saying, and let's look outside, and there's birds and flowers and trees, and it's actually not all the time, but a lot of the time, you're digesting this information on a global level. And there's peace in your immediate environment. And there can be conflict with that, or there can just be lack of awareness of one or the other. So we're gonna sort of dancing,
Speaker 2 43:15
all of that balancing is, is tough for everybody. You know, for all of us, it's tough.
Lisa Danylchuk 43:24
Now, just noticing I'm like, so now we're gonna start to wrap up. To but it's, it's, we've had some questions in the wrap up phase, it's a gradual process. I'm curious what you would say to someone? Well, there's two angles on this. The first one is to a therapist who's just learning about the ID. And you know, maybe feeling overwhelmed in that but also if there's someone you know, seeking their own personal healing that's just swimming in it. Where would you point those people?
Speaker 2 43:59
Well, a little bit different directions. But I would say to the to the therapist, the first thing is get good consultation. Yes. Well, the first thing is get your own personal therapy because Yeah, nobody walks in as a therapist unscathed by life. And what what I find is working with intense trauma brings up whatever is unfinished in your life. And everybody has unfinished business. So get your own personal therapy first, ongoing, and then find a good consultant whether that's individual or group is I think both have their pros and cons and group can be really wonderful. You learn from other people, but get a consultant and stay in consultation. I still get consultation. I will until I have my last session. Yeah, yeah. And for somebody Just starting the journey, I think that the tricky thing is finding a good enough therapist doesn't have to be a therapist who's expert in the ID, but they do need to know something about it. And they need to generally be a good therapist. I think there's a lot of literature out there available to people like online, like how to pick a good therapist, you know, one with boundaries, one that really listens, they're not talking about their personal life all the time. That that can help you. And, you know, even interview a few different therapists to see if it's the right fit. Because you can have three really, really good therapists, but you only feel like it's a good fit with one of them. Yeah. So those things that commands Yeah, all the relational factors are important. But also the training is, is my therapist competent as a psychotherapist first? And as a trauma informed Association? Informed therapist second? Yes,
Lisa Danylchuk 46:13
yeah. One day trauma informed will encompass dissociation informed, but for now, well, I
Unknown Speaker 46:18
don't wish.
Lisa Danylchuk 46:22
So what's next for you? I know, you've done a ton of writing and presenting and traveling. You're also very involved with your family. What's what's on the horizon? Well, I
Speaker 2 46:33
think what's on the horizon for me, not tomorrow, but retirement is the next big thing on the horizon. Whether that means doing none of this work, or a little bit of this work, I don't know. Probably in two years. So I'm slowing down. I'm enjoying my grandchildren. I'm sort of reflecting back not having big goals for the future, which is really, really different and interesting. Yeah. Right. It's a really different stage of life. And I'm enjoying the heck out of it.
Lisa Danylchuk 47:10
That sounds nice. Yeah, you've got
Speaker 2 47:17
other plans for you going? Yeah, but that's also wonderful, too. It's hard and wonderful. It's all of life is I'm finding aging, both hard and wonderful. Now, so in slowing down with my practice, hard and wonderful. This is really a paradox
Lisa Danylchuk 47:39
right now. And you've spent so much time working with some of the most complex developmental trauma, I'm wondering what brings you hope?
Speaker 2 47:50
Well, I think what brings me hope, it's probably a couple of things. More of a wider, perhaps you might say, a spiritual perspective, that life is this mixed bag. And we we make of it what we make of it as best we can. And that many, many, many people that I've helped, either through direct care or through consultation have gotten significant healing. A few haven't, right. But the hope is that most people who come for help get help. And that that is important. Do I feel like I've changed the world? No, of course not. Is the world a better place than it used to be? I don't know. I don't have the I mean, those are big existential questions, right. But I think what gives me hope is, is those things from a bigger perspective, and on a day to day perspective, being with my grandchildren, working in the garden, being with humans, I'd love to connect with. That's the thing, right? That is the thing that really keeps us alive.
Lisa Danylchuk 49:13
Mm hmm. No, that's beautiful. I remember early on in my career, recognizing, oh, I'm gonna live and die. And this is still going to be an issue like, Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. And that's a little bit of that. I think of like, when you're leaning into the jump rope jumping in and jumping out, well, it's still turning right if like, Okay, I'm gonna jump in, I'm gonna jump out. And I have to be able to, in some ways, really center my own experience of, well, this is, this is my ride around, and I'll do what I can. And I think knowing that first felt like a big disappointment was like, No, I'm going to change the world and I'm getting out Oh, you have that? Maybe naive or just the excitement around the word excitement. Yeah, yeah. You realize what a, what a lot to chew it is and how much control you really have, which is very little so
Unknown Speaker 50:15
fair. It's not it's not
Speaker 2 50:26
you know, if you're, if you're zooming out and looking at all the things that are horrible about the world, that's, that's there, you know, yeah. But if you're in the moment, again, with what is good, I think that is the the meaningful piece. And the truth is, you and I and other therapists have made huge differences in some people's lives. Has it changed the whole world? No, but it certainly has rippled out in their hemispheres, you know. And I think I've become a better person for having done therapy and for having sat with people who are so wounded is broken my heart on the one hand, but it's also made me so much more expansive. So I think in terms of picking a profession, what more can you ask for? Now, it's not about changing the world, but it is about change.
Lisa Danylchuk 51:28
Right, and there's a mutual experience of growth or expansion or of acknowledging like not being in the avoidance, acknowledging the hardships, but also not getting stuck in the avoidance or in the trauma, right, like finding this pathway of healing, whatever that is, for each person at different stages is gonna look different, but finding it,
Speaker 2 51:51
finding it, and I'm finding it at this age, this really interesting experience of it being okay, to let go of not being a therapist, it's, I mean, it's almost inconceivable to a part of me going What, what, but at the same time, it's like, yeah, it's time down. So, you know, these things do come and seasons.
Lisa Danylchuk 52:20
Yeah. So how can people connect with you if they want to take a training in the next few years before you're out on grandparent duty full time?
Speaker 2 52:31
Right, right. Or other things, too? Yeah. Well, they can go to my website, which is Kathy dash steel.com. They can email me, they can do all kinds of things. But yeah, I'm still I'm still around, not retiring yet.
Lisa Danylchuk 52:51
And are you doing any trainings in Italy anytime soon? For personal?
Speaker 2 52:57
I'm curious. I'm doing training in Italy, but it's a webinar or voc personality disorders. So yeah, I'm not traveling much anymore, mostly because of health reasons. So I'm not getting on those airplanes anymore, which, honestly, I don't miss. Yeah, I missed the people. But the travel part. Don't miss it at all.
Lisa Danylchuk 53:24
Right? Yeah. Do you have a translator when you're in Italy? Yes. Somebody translating?
Unknown Speaker 53:30
Yeah. Yet. Are you going?
Lisa Danylchuk 53:35
Well, you know, I lived in Italy in college, over 20 years ago now, but and I've been back a number of times. And I taught last, I think last I was there was maybe 2016. And I taught a workshop in Italian. I was very proud of my Dalyan holy cow. I remembered enough to communicate. And there were a few words in there that I hadn't really used during my stay living. I had a clinician, Martha, who has a center in Rome who invited me over and so every time I would go, is this the right word? She Oh, yeah, that's sorry. Oh, this is one week, so it was so helpful. But I haven't been back since then. I think it was 2016 was last time I was there. And so I've been itching, so I'm just looking for a reason. I'm like, oh, Kathy, are you gonna be motivating? Italy? Yeah, we'll see. Because again, there's
Speaker 2 54:30
one thing a big thing Yes, yes. Yes. It's wonderful.
Lisa Danylchuk 54:39
But yeah, we'll make it back at some point.
Speaker 2 54:41
Okay. You will but you got bigger fish to fry right now. Yeah, definitely.
Lisa Danylchuk 54:45
Well, thank you so much Kathy, for your time and for me is so appreciate you coming on the show and sharing your wisdom with us and very excited for you for gardening and time with family and Just it's something you know, the wonderful challenges of transitioning into retirement. It's. Yeah, it's a lot. And I'm glad we got to listen to you today.
Speaker 2 55:10
Yeah, from you, and thanks for having this podcast. This is really wonderful.
Lisa Danylchuk 55:15
Oh, I love it. It's so much fun. I get to talk to all these amazing, brilliant people, then share it. Great. Thank you. Thanks, Kathy. Thanks so much for listening. My hope is that you walk away from these episodes feeling supported, and like you have a place to come to find the hope and inspiration you need to take your next small step forward. For more information and resources, please visit my website how we can heal.com There you'll find tons of helpful resources and the full transcript of each show. You can also click the podcast menu to submit requests for upcoming topics and guests. I look forward to hearing your ideas
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
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