Today on How We Can Heal Podcast, Lisa Danylchuk talks to Dr. Rosita Cortizo about her approach to helping women and moms heal internally through simple and subtle ways. For Dr. Rosita, a mother must know how to take care of herself. And that covers all aspects of well-being. But how can one mom start when there's just so much asked for from mothers? Dr. Rosita shares how volunteer work opened her to her current field of specialty, how trauma affects motherhood and womanhood, and why it's all-important for everyone to learn about how they got into this world.
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Mothers – what place do you have in this world?
Even with the current generation's awakening to more open discussions on mental health, it's surprising to see how most people are still very unfamiliar with anything that has to do with therapy. No matter how necessary, some say, therapy is still very inaccessible for some. And mothers are not alien to the issue. For Dr. Rosita, economic concerns are one of the leading factors; a mother's responsibilities are number two.
In her experience, Dr. Rosita cites a straight entry point that can change how moms look at therapy as a whole: it's through education. Moms need to understand that it's essential to feel good about themselves. How a mother feels will impact how others feel in her care. Dr. Rosita teaches moms that they are the 'queens' of their bodies and children. If a mother doesn't feel good about herself, she cannot teach her children how they can feel good about themselves—let alone self-care and self-love.
About Dr. Rosita Cortizo:
Rosita Cortizo, originally from Panama City, Panama, in South America, currently works as a high-risk, multicultural, bilingual prenatal and perinatal clinical psychologist for women's health services working with female adults and children.
Dr. Cortizo has worked in Public Health in Southern California with pregnant women at high risk with multiple diagnoses, traumatic stress, dissociative processes, and relational crisis for more than 30 years.
She holds licenses as both clinical psychologist (2001) and marriage family therapist (1998); and earned a Master of Arts in Psychology with a specialty in Chemical Dependency (1993) in San Diego, California. She is EMDRIA Certified, an Approved EMDR Consultant, and the 2021 ISSTD President.
Outline of the episode:
- [02:58] What volunteer work opened Dr. Rosita Cortizo to
- [05:33] I wanted to see how far my volunteer work would go
- [10:10] Treating trauma in public health was nothing like in the textbooks
- [15:00] Birth is a painful conversation!
- [20:29] In what avenue does Dr. Rosita Cortizo begin to work on a mother's interpersonal healing
- [25:56] Moms need to learn self-soothing so their children can learn it too
- [31:02] Why it definitely helps to get to know your patients more personally
- [35:30] Compare then despair
- [44:03] It's who, not how!
- [50:35] Dr. Rosita Cortizo – I want to be a hand for all moms!
Resources:
Website: http://www.rositacortizo.com/
A website to support parents and their babies from the time of conception to year one: https://thecalmingwomb.com/
Prenatal Broken Bonds: Trauma, Dissociation and the Calming Womb Model, by Dr. Risa Cortizo:
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/15299732.2021.1834300
Full Transcription:
Rosita Cortizo 0:00
This is an exciting point in time because women are becoming more visible first of all. Then we all have to realize that in exploring ourselves, we would be doing each one of us a great service if we explore how we came into the world. You know, sometimes it's a painful conversation. What we wanted. Where we planned. Birth order. What did the adjustment tackle when we were born or did that go unseen and created sibling revelry?
Lisa Danylchuk 0:00
Hello, and welcome to the How We Can Heal Podcast. My name is Lisa Danylchuck and I created this podcast to share deep conversations that encouraged us to move through life's toughest circumstances. Let's get talking about how we can heal.
Lisa Danylchuk 0:01
Today my guest is Dr. Rosita Cortizo. Rosita is originally from Panama City, Panama in South America, and currently works as a Multicultural, Bilingual, Prenatal, and Perinatal Clinical Psychologist for Women's Health Services in San Diego, California. Dr. Cortizo has worked to promote health for pregnant women with multiple diagnoses, traumatic stress, dissociative processes, and relational crises for more than 30 years. She holds licenses as both a Clinical Psychologist and a Marriage and Family Therapist and earned her Master's in Psychology with a specialty in Chemical Dependency. She's Emdria certified and approved EMDR Consultant, and she served as the 2021 International Society for the Study of Trauma and Dissociation President. You can learn more about her and her work at thecalmingwomb.com and at rositacortizo.com
Lisa Danylchuk 0:58
Rosita and I have connected over the past few years through our work with the ISSTD Executive Committee and Board of Directors. In 2021. She led the organization with grace and calm and care and I'm so grateful to be able to follow in her footsteps. I'm excited for you to hear from her directly and to learn about her work with pregnant moms and families. So let's welcome Rosita to the show.
Lisa Danylchuk 1:38
Yay, Rosita. I'm so happy to have you here.
Rosita Cortizo 1:42
Hi, thank you. How are you? Thank you for having me here, Lisa.
Lisa Danylchuk 1:45
Yeah, I'm good. And I'm glad we've got Penelope joining. For those watching on video, we've got a little feline presence in the background along with some flowers. I always appreciate that whenever we talk receipt, or that you have flowers or singing bowls or something really like grounding or soothing in your background. I use those things in meetings, I look over your shoulder and I'm ahh, that's better.
Rosita Cortizo 2:06
Well, thank you. I love flowers and it always brings me back to Earth. And yeah, you're right grounding and relaxation, thinking of something pleasant and pleasurable and also evoke that feeling to other, you know, other people around.
Lisa Danylchuk 2:24
Even through zoom. Right? So I want to start by asking just a little bit more about you and your history. I know you do a ton of clinical work. And I know you've had articles out and interviews and things like that. But I want to just give a chance for people listening to kind of get to know. And I want to learn because we haven't always had a chance to explore all this stuff together. How did you how'd you get into doing trauma work?
Rosita Cortizo 2:59
Well, it's an interesting path. I was working in something totally unrelated to psychology, but because of my upbringing and education, it was always fostered that we need some kind of volunteer work. So I was doing volunteer work in this private clinic that treated addictions. And from there, they sent me to represent Panama in Canada. And I loved everything I heard. So I ended up really joining the field, through service, and through just kind of curiosity, and what would make these incredible people hooked on substances that were killing them. And what was the purpose, and I got really close to a lot of those folks that I supported. And anyway, so then, that one thing led to another.
Lisa Danylchuk 4:09
You were volunteering, you went to represent Panama on a trip to Canada or while you were in Canada, and that was working with substance abuse?
Rosita Cortizo 4:18
Yes. And those days, you know, addictions were seen as a problem, you know, like a group that was creating problems for another group. It wasn't seen as a trauma-driven, you know, afflicted individuals. So when I came after I came back from Canada, I just realized this was a field that I wanted to explore. So I came to the States for my graduate school when I finished my master's in chemical dependency. Then I ended up working with pregnant women, and then it's when they feel trauma, starts manifesting and showing in the room. But it wasn't at the time trauma. It was just these difficult clients. In my heart, I knew they were not difficult something was wrong with that picture. And that's when I started being very adamant and very forceful about supporting this group of people and finding out more because I felt like we were missing elements of healing for this population.
Lisa Danylchuk 5:31
Absolutely. So how did it translate from substance abuse to working with women and pregnancy? Was there an overlap between like, were you working with women who are also dealing with substance abuse issues while they were pregnant? Or was it more of like a, a turning point or a gradual transition?
Rosita Cortizo 5:50
Well, again, as I, when I finished my Master's, I wanted to do some volunteer work and see how it'll apply in the States before I move back to Panama, where I'm originally from. And because my intent was just to come for a year and go right back, or a year and a half and go right back to work in Panama and work in our crack epidemic. But what happened, and mind you before I came back to the States before I started graduate school, I had an internship with the core of dual diagnosis at the time, which was the Psychiatrist that work in the Mental Health Institution in Panama, and I was he's co-facilitator in my service work. And so we're, we're running groups under a tree, you know, in a private place. And then, so from all that, you know, we go back to me graduating and doing service work. In my first facility, I need less with this group of pregnant women. I never intended to work with women never intended to work with pregnant women never intended to work with moms of small children. The program was for pregnant women, and children up to the age of four. So that was my first experience 30 years ago with Prenatal Psychotherapy.
Lisa Danylchuk 7:15
Nice. So you've got some experience, fair to say, you've been around for a minute. So how and when did you start learning about dissociation? Was that clear early on? Or was that something you picked up? In the middle of the work? When did that happen?
Rosita Cortizo 7:33
I think that I work with those moms. And then I work in crisis centers. And it didn't occur to me because I kept going to school, I was going through a Master's in marriage and family. And along the way, I decided I wanted to get my doctorate in clinical psychology because that would give me more depth. But then, what if I didn't finish? So I decided to finish my MFT and get a license in case. And then well, when I finished at all, it became clear that some things were missing in this school training. The books didn't talk about dissociation, it talks about false memories. There were a lot of different things that were not honored. We were not taught, not for lack of willingness, but for lack of, I think, research understanding and innovation and curiosity. So it was when I was at the clinic, after two years of working in that clinic, it must have been like, maybe 20 years ago. And I just had this client with horrendous trauma. It was one thing and I'm going to combine these four because of confidentiality and privacy with a lot of other things still keeping the dilemma. So combining a few stories into one that are similar to protect identity, but this person came with a lot of trauma. I mean, it was one and the other end, the other end, I just felt empty-handed. I just felt like you know, I had much willingness, but I had, I had a lot of information, but I didn't have that refined specific information. And there were things she was remembering. And she didn't know if they were real or not. And I just knew enough to listen to her. Yeah. But I just she was my inspiration/
Lisa Danylchuk 9:39
And at what point did you find the ISSTD? Was that around that time or later on?
Rosita Cortizo 9:46
It was much later. I think it was many years later because after a few years after trading her and many clients like her, I was treating men, women, children, and families. I mean, there were a lot of stories that were very similar and I didn't know about trauma still. It wasn't taught the way we're talking right now that the treatment needs to be phased, that we want to take it slow. None of that was talked about at the time, especially in a community clinic in public health. So it was just so rapid social volume, social intensity, whatever you were learning in school, it didn't seem to apply to our world, to the world of that community, that the amount of repetitive incidents. It wasn't classic textbook cases, it was completely different. So first of all, I had to orient myself, to the work that I was meant to do as the manager of that clinic. In the community where I live, it was different than the community where I live and the other communities where I have to work, even though they were eight was the same population. So it took a while to kind of feel comfortable with that population, be curious, and understanding and then recognize that there were specific things missing. And that's when I got trained in EMDR. And when my supervisor recommended that I joined the DISSOC. And from there, I learned about the International Society for this study, and dissociation is SSTD. And that's where everything has unfolded so nicely.
Lisa Danylchuk 11:45
Yeah, and I'm so glad to be connected with you through that association. I feel like there's a lot of people I talked to who kind of feel like they're out there alone, sort of, ironically, floating, floating out there, knowing about dissociation, not really, fully connected to a group that gets it. And so it is nice to, to figure that piece out. I mean, I share with you I worked in housing developments for a while. And yeah, these you know, young people that are like 16 years old, and they have all these diagnoses in this case file. And you're like, can we talk about the things that they've been through? And can we talk about how that might be impacting their ability to pay attention or their feelings about themselves or their mood and their thoughts about life? Right? It seems I think, when you get when you have a trauma-informed perspective, it makes a lot of sense. But when you don't, and you're just sort of going with checkboxes and symptoms or behaviors, it can seem kind of scattered and overwhelming. So you've helped a lot of people, a lot of women, in particular, that's one of your specialties. Yeah, working with women, before, during, after pregnancy, working with kids and families. What are some common challenges you see in your clinical work these days?
Rosita Cortizo 13:12
I think when I started to work with the population, what I have seen that was an issue for the mothers-to-be, or mothers of small children, was transportation in our community. Women wanted the service. The access to services. After COVID, it really changed because we can talk over the phone, most of them, a lot of them don't have the technology, but we can make it very simple and easy. I call them on the phone. And if they want, they can come to the clinic. So we have opened up the door to accessing services in ways that we were not able to. I think that probably institutional understanding of trauma, it's still a little weak. I think that if we were to understand the impact of developmental trauma, we would do a lot more work around pregnant moms and families. And that's the issue for me now because I have worked with children. I have worked with adults. I have worked with families. And finally, it all comes together. You know, you have the mother, the child, the family all in one. And we're missing an opportunity to really do prevention as we're doing treatment. And as we're treating the individual, we can also treat the family. It's a lot that we're missing by not seeing this group of invisible clients.
Lisa Danylchuk 14:47
So for people who maybe don't work with this population or aren't, you know, pregnant women and working in families with families in this way isn't on their radar. Can you spell it out? Like what? What preventative things do you feel like pregnant women or the people that you see, what are some easy access points for supporting that group making the group more visible? And even I think, you know, I think we're on the same wavelength here. But, you know, even preventing future mental health challenges with, with children and fostering attachment and things like that, what are some things you've seen work well? Or what are some things you wish more clinics, you know, countries maybe or organizations could do for pregnant women?
Rosita Cortizo 15:39
Well, I think this is an exciting point in time because women are becoming more visible first of all. Then we all have to realize that in exploring ourselves, we would be doing each one of us a great service if we explore how we came into the world. You know, sometimes it's a painful conversation. What we wanted. Where we planned. Birth order. What did the adjustment tackle when we were born or did that go unseen and created sibling revelry? All these things are so important when we look at them. It doesn't have to be somebody in treatment. It just starts with everybody just coming to that realization that we have all been there before. Now the issue that we're having with pregnant moms, it's that they have so much to do. It's a lot. Mothers have plenty to do. They just don't think. I have chased moms all the way to their cars carrying baby carts and all kinds of toys, you know, and pamphlets just to have a longer conversation, because, quite frankly, after the first session, moms are really busy and having therapy, it's not a priority. Much, you know, when we talk about the Maslow Pyramid of needs, you know, therapy humored in all these things are very altruistic, but sometimes, and very necessary, but sometimes, when people need food and stability, that doesn't seem to be a priority. So it's creating healing to become a social priority, a priority for pregnant women, I think it's very important. So how do we do that? How can we get there? One way that I have found very helpful, is to create a lot of education and understanding about the importance for the mothers to feel good about themselves. Because if they don't feel good about themselves, they are not going to feel good about connecting with their babies. As a matter of fact, even if they want to, they are not going to connect in ways that they really would love to do or foresee happening. So that's the first understanding, and I have crowns all over my office so that they know that they are the queen. The queen of the house. Queen or princess, whatever, they want.
Lisa Danylchuk 18:16
Crowns you said all over your office?
Rosita Cortizo 18:20
Yes, I do.
Lisa Danylchuk 18:21
I love that. I love that.
Rosita Cortizo 18:23
It's very representative Lisa of their place in the life of the children. If they feel good, the kids feel good. You know, and even before they conceive, they can talk to the baby and create that connection. It's one way, but then it comes to the ultrasound, and that's a picture of any resemblance to her, or maybe the partner. And then it comes the element of baby kicking. So we have, when the baby is moving, we have other conversation but all throughout, you know those 10 crucial and vital significant months of womb baby forming, I mean, we have, we can do a lot of work.
Lisa Danylchuk 19:07
So supporting the mom in feeling good about herself, feeling important, supporting people, and acknowledging, hey, as this baby's growing, it's still inside a person, the woman who's carrying the baby, but we can start to develop a relationship there from that very beginning. So I mean, what I hear in that is you're starting to foster a responsive relationship, right? That is one of those bases for secure attachment. And you're also I mean, speaking of Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs, you're talking about creating an environment, physically speaking, for the developing child that feels positive. I mean, we know that when people feel better about themselves it's a different internal state, right? So and it's a different neurobiological state, and it's a different, you know, whole different physiological imprint. So. So what you're saying is from that very beginning, we can develop that relationship. We can give a lot of respect and dignity and worth to the woman carrying the child, which then influences the child too. Am I getting that right?
Rosita Cortizo 20:27
Yes, yes. And all that modeling and interpersonal healing can happen in the room. From the time that we feel we meet that mother for the first time, opening the door and saying, I'm so glad to meet you. Can I offer you water? Do you need to go to the restroom? You see you're taking care of primary needs? It's subtle, but it's important. When they go into the office, where do you want to sit? Wherever you want to sit wherever you feel the most comfortable. This is your place. And then they see wherever they find. And then you know, I'm not answering anyone's calls, because I'm focusing on you. So of course with the cells now, the whole purpose is, let's turn our gadgets off so that we're focusing on you. And then, of course, there is the crown, you know, you are so important. You're bringing a little one into the world, and how you feel it's going to impact how other people feel. Then there is the conversation, can my anxiety, if I cry, if I have therapy with you, would that affect my baby?
Rosita Cortizo 21:41
That's a very valid comment, very repetitive. And my question is, I think if something is bothering you, and you don't work on that, that's going to affect you now. And that's going to fit you later. And it's going to increase probably how much it affects you and your family. So why don't we tackle that now and reduce it, so you don't feel it? And then it's an opportunity to educate moms about stress about, you know, the baby and how they can talk to the baby to protect the baby. I also from the first day, or the second day, I ask them if I can talk to the baby. You see, I asked for permission. Can I talk to the baby? What's the baby's name? Do you have a nickname? It fosters already that connection. The baby is already here. The baby is not an object. The baby's not a package. The baby is here. I mean, it's a part of our conversation. We're having family therapy in a way and everything we do, it's going to affect the baby. So when we have heated discussions, you know, I want to use that and tell them the baby is probably not as present as it would be when it's delivered. But you still want to pay attention to and keep in mind that when you're having adult discussions, you want the baby to be in a different room. In a protected room where the baby doesn't get to hear the conversation. And we sometimes talk about that in the context of therapy when the baby it's in the womb. We say well, could you imagine the baby having a veil that it's predicted and it's not a part of this conversation? Sometimes I even apologize to the baby. I'm so sorry, we're talking about these things. They are a little bit difficult. They are not about you. It's about mom, and we're taking care of them. So you see, so the baby it's already not responsible. And mom learns behaviors that later on when the baby is little mom and dad are going to have arguments for mom and mom, dad and dad, whatever preferences those are. And whatever the adults do, it's not the responsibility of the child nor is the child responsible for those.
Lisa Danylchuk 23:53
It's so great to start setting and modeling those boundaries. When I think for many people, especially early in pregnancy, it's it feels like an idea or it doesn't feel like a reality yet. So you're very much bringing the tangible nature of the young developing person into the room and into the relationship and I so appreciate that question about, oh, well, what if I have negative feelings come up? What if I get angry? What if I get you know, and we call those feelings negative but they're just other feelings, right? They're just feelings. So what if I have a challenging feeling like anger or sadness come up and is not going to hurt my baby? If I feel sad or angry while they're in there? And it makes me think of too like you talked about the discussions, whether the baby's inside a woman's body or outside a person's body. They're there and it's important to factor that in. So you know if we were having a conversation if someone was feeling angry or sad, and the child was in the house, well, it's not about like, never feeling sad or never feeling angry. It's more about learning how to move through those things. Right? So it's a different biology, obviously, when someone's carrying a child internally, but I really appreciate that question because I can imagine lots of people feel protective, right? Feel like, I don't want to hurt my baby by being mad. So there's a kind of, say two sides of it. One is like, okay, let's learn some self-regulation for stress or not let anger snowball or skyrocket, but then let's also attend to your feelings so that they're not just still there tucked into the background, tucking, you know, hiding somewhere in your shoulders or coming out over the long term. Let's address it so that you can move through it and that you can keep supporting this person that's developing within you.
Rosita Cortizo 25:56
Yes, and often there, it's the issue of isn't that selfish, that I focus on myself. My response is no. If you are okay, the children are going to be okay. Because it's not that you're gonna forget about them, it's that you're going to balance that. You cannot offer them what you don't have. So yes, learning how to breathe, learning how to self soothe. Drinking water to hydrate and release some stress. I mean, all these things are so important. And I think that moms need to learn them so that they can teach their kids even, you know, there are simple techniques that they can do for themselves. And then they can practice with their children like blowing bubbles. You know, I mean, like, you can breathe. You can blow bubbles, and then you can breathe again, and then you can blow bubbles. It's a lot of fun. The kids get a kick out of it, and mom gets to relax too.
Lisa Danylchuk 26:56
Yes. So what is a mom's words would they be looking for if they're coming to see you? Do you have a sense of how, how do people tend to express an emotional need? Or what kind of healing are they seeking or looking for, when they come and find you?
Rosita Cortizo 27:15
You know, these exciting elements, I think in therapy that everybody comes with a little bit of a different need. So everybody's so different. Even though, you know, it seems like things fall into a category in my somatic cutter transfers, it doesn't. Everybody is just so unique, and has such an authentic different need. And so, but I would say that, overall, a lot of moms would want to have education So in Utero Developmental Guidance has become really, I created, eventually, I created a model because I figure, you know, it's a common womb family therapy model because I felt like I needed to conceptualize the work that I'm doing with these families. And then it became something that I can easily share with other people in that it can be elements that they can add to their own work. But I find it very useful to do an indication of the baby in the womb, and the mom's indication of herself and her needs as the baby's growing. We explore projections, a lot of moms would have wanted maybe a boy and they were getting a girl or they wanted a girl, they wanted a boy. And a lot of things come up in the room when they go and they were not aware. And that's the dissociative component. Moms go into a GYN office and they are having a pelvic exam. And they don't even know why they're having the reactions they are having. A lot of fear, discomfort, so a lot of terror, nightmares. So these things become a part of the work. You know, what are these things? What's the meaning of all of that for a mom? And it's different for every mom.
Lisa Danylchuk 29:20
Yeah. And it sounds like for some people, there might be moments where the pregnancy itself or the procedures around it are triggering things that maybe they do remember things that perhaps they don't remember. And that can be really overwhelming and confusing amidst all of the adaptations of parenthood or new parenthood. And so you provide the space and the understanding to support people through if they are feeling triggered, or if they do have a memory come up, or if they are wondering, whoa, what's going on here? You can kind of provide that space and support.
Rosita Cortizo 29:58
Yes, and the interesting. I have been in this community clinic for 20 years. So I have seen a lot of clients since they are teenagers. So I have seen some of them having children. So I know their issues. You know, so when they get pregnant, I mean, it's good because you know, we can prevent postpartum depression. We can talk about it. We can, you know, mom can be prepared. And, you know, it doesn't, it doesn't take away all the problems, but it sure makes the mother feel more informed about herself.
Lisa Danylchuk 30:36
I just love hearing that you have been in this clinic for 20 years because I think of the clinics I've worked in, and most of them it was soon after I finished my bachelor's and you know, or during my Master's, or, you know, two, three years tops, like, and there's such a loss in I think, the turnover, and when you just talk about, oh, I've been in this clinic, 20 years. I knew this person. I watched them grow up, or I've known them since they were a teenager, and I can support them, not just in a general sense but in a very responsive and unique way. Right? Like you have that capacity having known someone to get a sense of like, well, how would this impact this person? Or what is their history? And what are they bringing? And what are their unique personality quirks and you have like to have some relationship before someone's going through something, especially if someone gets pregnant, and then they get triggered and get a memory of some early traumatic experience to have someone you've known for 5, 10, 15, 20 years, that's such an incredible resource. So it just makes me smile hearing you say that you've been there. And I hear and I know just from listening to you, over the years, how much passion you have for this. And it's I think, you and your people, your clients are very lucky.
Rosita Cortizo 32:03
Oh, thank you, Lisa. You know, I think it the years went by really fast, I have to say. But also, I mean, it gave me some kind of intuitive satisfaction to feel like I could tell the women, you know, if you need to come back, the doors are open. And part of my policy is that if you need to come back for whatever issues, later on, you can always come back. No questions asked you know, and also being able to treat pregnant women, even when we're not taking any more clients. I think it's so nice to be able to offer that and to know that once the kids are older, they can come back. I have treated moms that felt really good, and then things happen four years down the road, and they came back for services, and I was still in the clinic. Sometimes you question yourself, you know, like, oh, my God, but you know, overall, I think that the proof is in the pudding. You know, I mean, it tastes pretty good every time, you know, when somebody feels like they can contact you ya know. Continue with them and there is some kind of attachment that has been repaired through the continuity of the relationship.
Lisa Danylchuk 33:19
Yes. 100%. So you're providing that I mean, just your presence in that way. Is there anything else you feel like you are cultivating with clients? Is there self-compassion, self-care, and healthy attachment? I kind of hear a mix of that in there. And maybe your model informs this and I'm just wondering if there's something specific or repetitive you feel like you're, you're providing?
Rosita Cortizo 33:47
I think because, you know, I don't know if it's the group of the clients that I'm treating, but they're a lot of. They came from very, from homes where their parents were very young. So the parents were growing and the kids grew with their parents. So they were you know, there wasn't a lot of slowly parenting. So part of the work is, to provide some reparenting. And with that comes shame. So I have seen that a lot of what I'm focusing on. It's self-compassion and curiosity. So the word curiosity came to my ears in a different way when Richard Chefetz, a Psychiatrist. He mentioned that concept in such a lovely way that I just, it just resonated with me profoundly. And I think that in treating moms, I mean, it's the one thing that it seems to be to remove shame when we are like, well, let's be curious about that. And let's just, let's just embrace it. Let's just embrace it. Let's be curious. Let's just not have judgment about that. And while we're doing that, let's practice self-compassion. So those are the things that I think that in you know that that move a lot of the work that I do.
Lisa Danylchuk 35:22
So what would you say then if there's someone listening, perhaps, they're pregnant? Perhaps they're a parent or a mom? What would you say to someone who's really struggling right now, I mean, we've been through a few years of the pandemic at this point. I think it's fair to say in the last handful of years, a lot of people have had a pretty tough time. What would you say to someone who's struggling right now?
Rosita Cortizo 35:46
Things will change. Things will get better, just keep working and taking care of yourself. It's almost like you paddle, paddle, paddle, paddle in a bucket of milk, and eventually, it becomes cream, and then you slide out of it. Also, another image that I like, it's that, you know, things get a little worse before they get a little better, because you've come to an understanding, and then there is some grief. But you know, it's like, healing is like going up a mountain. And this, the taller the mountain, the nicer the view when you look back. So meaning that if you work hard, eventually you're gonna get results. There is always a perception that things are better in the neighbor's yard. That the grass is greener some somewhere else. And I always tell the clients, no, no, no, no. The grass is always greener where you're at because that's the grass you have. And we're gonna focus on that grass. Don't worry about the neighbors, because we don't know if they're worms underneath. We don't know what's going on with that grass. Your grass is what we have, and we can attend to right now.
Lisa Danylchuk 37:00
Yeah, so that sort of refocuses energy in the present moment. And, you know, I love the expression, compare and despair. Because I think we can really, oh but this other person has this and this other person looks so happy, or this other person seems to have it all. And it's like, seems to. We don't know what's going on over there. But it really ends up being kind of a waste of energy because we're creating the story in our minds in our heads that isn't really based on anything other than our projection, right?
Rosita Cortizo 37:34
Yes, yes. And those projections, you know, can certainly get in the way sometimes, you know. One thing that is really interesting Lisa that you have probably heard a lot about that, too. It's that what happens in the room, you know, that stickiness that happened from time to time in the room? And who we represent we who we get to represent at different times in therapy, and, boy, it, it gives our job, a little bit of unimportance, I would say, you know, to be able to take the heat and to be able to explore that heat.
Lisa Danylchuk 38:18
Yeah. It's challenging sometimes. And so I mean, another question I'd have for you is, I think a lot of folks listening are in different healing professions: yoga, mental health, health in general. And I know, throughout the pandemic, mental health providers have kind of had a rough time, because, you know, they transition from being with people to being online and have, you know, a lot more demand for services have the impacts of the pandemic, the grief, the anxiety, the amplification of, you know, whatever is happening, and then they're going through something. They're going through the same thing at the same time in a different way. So what would you say to providers, right now, mental health or general health providers, who are maybe feeling a little bit burnt out or who are feeling, like they're having a hard time?
Rosita Cortizo 39:18
You know, and that's, that's such a good point, Lisa. Because I think that we're set up to work in crisis. So you know, also in a clinic, you know, I don't know about other clinics, but ours thrive. The Behavioral Health Department just became really, really busy. And while other parts of the clinic they were reorganizing were totally organized to do what we have been doing. So we were at full capacity like 120, 115, 210 productivity, which is unheard of. So it almost doubles up. So we're still functioning pretty highly, I think. And so it became really important for us to meet regularly as a group. So I think that having social and social groups connected with family and friends making an effort to maybe go and learn a new and new kind of hobby or craft, I mean, becoming more sociable, going out making the extra effort to go out in nature, you know, to call family friends. I think that it's very important. It certainly was very important, you know.
Lisa Danylchuk 40:39
I'm thinking of the flower pictures that you sent me the other day, like, just those walks in nature and being really present to, I always get the little tea bag wisdom, you know, you get a cup of tea, and there's like a quote on it, that says something like, flowers are the, oh, I'm gonna, I'm gonna forget it. Now, I'm gonna totally mess it up. But like, flowers are this miracle of the Earth, right? Like there's, and they're so amazing when you really stop. And it's springtime. We're both in California right now. It's springtime in California, right now you go around, and it's like, wow, that's incredible. And so something, I think then of the emotion of awe, right, and being able to just be in awe of those simple things. Be connected to nature. Be connected to each other. Yeah, I agree. I think all of that is just super important. And I know I get a lot of energy out of just being with people, we don't even have to be talking necessarily like we can just be hanging out. And I get a ton of relief from being in the outdoors. And just, you know, walking or running, climbing one of those mountains, like all of that stuff is really healing for me.
Rosita Cortizo 41:55
Well, and I think it's very important. What you know, what we were talking about earlier about telling the mothers to take care of themselves so they can take care of their kids. Well, we need to take care of ourselves, if we're going to be effective in taking care of other people. Because taking care of our energy, of our creativity, networking, and going to seminars. I mean, I love going to our ISSTD seminars because you get new information, but you also get aside from the novelty of the information, you get that contact with other professionals, the high energy, I mean, everybody seems to be vibrating so high, you come back and you have that energy for a couple of weeks. I mean, pretty powerful.
Lisa Danylchuk 42:40
Absolutely, yeah, there's a very tangible feeling to that, to that group energy. So I love the full circleness of yeah, as you know if you're a mother, or you're a therapist, or your parent, or your a yoga teacher helping people. There are so many ways we say this and so many analogies we use to try to talk about self-care in this way. But it is really important to nourish yourself. One of the ones I love is you've got to nourish to flourish, right? You have to nourish yourself, like the flowers behind, you got to put water in there. A lot of plants need soil and sun, like, we're not that different. We might be a little more complex with our needs. But we need something in space. And in order to flourish ourselves. Yes, very true. So I know you're just full of wisdom, so I'm curious if there's anything else you would say to people who are facing trauma right now? Like what would you want them to know, to feel, to believe about themselves? I think a lot of times people don't even know they're facing trauma. But if someone's like, really in the thick of maybe grief after the pandemic of recent loss, or some other kind of trauma they're working with what would you say to them?
Rosita Cortizo 44:04
I would say do not give up and reach out to somebody that has what you would want because then you would get it. And I think it's important not to give up. I have been a witness. I have worked with people for sometimes for a long time, that felt really, really bad about their lives. And we work together really hard. These clients work very, very hard and against their own willingness to continue. And over time, they were able to see that light at the end of the tunnel. You know it one day they came back and they were better and it wasn't one thing that happened. I think it was the build-up of wisdom, and courage and their capacity to be loyal to their to themselves, and to be seen, and to be heard, and to be valued, and to then know that one-day things would shift, and to trust that somebody was holding the flashlight in the right direction.
Lisa Danylchuk 45:07
So what gives you hope, at this point in the world and in life?
Rosita Cortizo 45:14
I, you know, it's, I think that very indirectly, it's not meant to happen. But it's but seeing people getting better, gives me hope in the work that I do. Because sometimes it's really hard to, especially when I started working in behavioral health, I transitioned from the perinatal program to behavioral health to work with the same clients, but to do it from a different department. And I started with a lot of new clients, it was such an amount of work and so difficult because everybody was so upset and sad, and in such a difficult place. And it's so interesting, because that wave over time, and different people at different times, it's like surfing. Some people were able to catch a wave, and some people got the wave later. But everybody seems to have been able to benefit from the swim in the water from the therapy. And that has been a value to me, even if a client has decided that they didn't want to continue the work at that time. That's very empowering because they know best and they know if they were to come back, they can come back to see me or they could go back to other resources that are provided. So all that is very hopeful to me, to see people feeling better getting better. Babies have been very healing. To see those babies' mom have been crying for the whole 10 months unconsolable, and then a baby's born laughing and can stop laughing and giggling throughout. You know, it's like, wow, where did that come from? So it's that mom was able to release everything to me in that room. And that so that the baby was left with different energy, whatever it was, it seems to be different. And it seems to be working. And so all of that it's great energy.
Lisa Danylchuk 47:16
Yeah, and what you're talking about is really powerful, it's intercepting intergenerational trauma really is what I hear, right? Like you're clearing things, addressing them, moving them through, so that the baby's born not needing to carry that or not needing to figure that out later in life. So that's really significant. That's huge for everyone. And it's very helpful, right to think of I mean, I just feel like babies are magic, I love babies. It is like ahh I just want to touch em, and squeeze em, and give them all the love, and protect them forever. But to know that you're a part of a process and to witness the work that your clients are doing to the emotional work, the you know, kind of dedicating the space to healing and then seeing an actual human being born that doesn't really have to carry some of that emotional stress or impact of trauma. That's, that's just huge.
Rosita Cortizo 48:20
I just also think that education has been very important. Education is very helpful to me. I find new things to do to collaborate with people. So when somebody says, I want to end it all. I understand different messages of what it's trying to convey to me. And the, and the adaptation of that message of, I want to find out with you a different life. Or I want to find a different life so I can make more sense of what I'm doing now. So I think education has been monumental, and its source of inspiration. Nature, it's a source of inspiration. My friends around the world, and family are a great inspiration as well. Having faith, I think faith has been inspirational.
Rosita Cortizo 49:11
Having faith. Yeah. I think I might have shared this in another one of the podcasts here. But sometimes just the simple mantra or thought to repeat just saying I have faith, like you know, in a lot of times we end up in conversations about religion or spirituality, or what does that mean, what do you have faith in? And I think sometimes we can also just put a period on the end of that sentence like I just have faith. Right. And we don't have to make it too complicated. Yeah, I think that's a beautiful contribution too. So Rosita.
Rosita Cortizo 49:46
Yes, sometimes faith in the universe, right?
Lisa Danylchuk 49:49
Faith in the universe. Faith in something.
Rosita Cortizo 49:55
Bigger than ourselves.
Lisa Danylchuk 49:58
So I'm curious, what's next for you? I know you've written a little bit about this the protocol that you use. How can people connect with your work and learn from all of your experience? What are some things that some resources you have out there? And how can people find you?
Rosita Cortizo 50:17
Well, I you know, they can go to my website at rositacortizo.com or they can email me at recortizo@gmail.com. The next step would be to create a training, I'm creating a training right now for the ISSTD with this information. I think that'd be helpful. I mean, ideally, I would love to be a hand for older moms I would love to create a program for moms that need babysitters can find somebody that can help them with the babies. I don't think that I'm going to get to that in this lifetime. But it would be really wonderful to be able to be kind of a grandmother, Grandmother Earth for a lot of babies. So.
Lisa Danylchuk 51:15
I can see that happening. I can 100% see that happening. And I know you've developed this, this model. And you know, you have a lot of wisdom to offer. So thank you for spending your time here today. Maybe we can have you back to kind of walk us through the model that you develop. Next time. I would love to get more into that. I know it's a little more focused and clinical. But you know, I love that stuff.
Rosita Cortizo 51:44
Thank you, Lisa, thank you so much for having me. For thinking that this work, it matters. And I love your podcast. I have heard it. And I really believe in all the information you're putting out there. And so thank you, for all you do. Yay. Thank you, Christina. And yes, it does matter. It matters so much everything you're doing all the people you're working with, they just matter so much. So I'm so glad you're doing it.
Lisa Danylchuk 52:14
Thanks, Rosita
Lisa Danylchuk 52:15
Thanks so much for listening. My hope is that you walk away from these episodes feeling supported, and like you have a place to come to find the hope and inspiration you need to take your next small step forward. I do want to make sure it's clear that this podcast isn't offering any prescriptions. It's not advice or any kind of diagnosis. Your decisions are in your hands, and we encourage you to consult with any relevant health care professionals you may need to support you through your unique path of healing.
Lisa Danylchuk 52:45
For more information and resources, please visit my website howwecanheal.com. There you'll find tons of helpful resources and the full transcript of each show. You can also click the podcast menu to submit requests for upcoming topics and guests.
Lisa Danylchuk 53:02
Before we wrap up, I want to say thanks to our guests today, to Christine O'Donnell and Celine Baumgartner of Bright Sighted Podcasting, and to everyone who helped support this podcast directly and indirectly. Alex, thanks for taking the dogs out while I record.
Lisa Danylchuk 53:19
I'd also like to give a shout-out to my brother Matt. He passed away in 2002. He wrote this music and recorded it and it makes my heart so happy to share it with you now.
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