Overview
Pronouns can feel like a tiny detail until you realize they are a real-time test of safety. When someone’s identity has been questioned, policed, or punished, the smallest moments in a therapy office can signal either danger or relief. I sit down with Dr. Lou Himes, a licensed psychologist and certified specialist in transgender mental health, to get concrete about what gender-affirming care looks like when trauma, dissociation, and systemic betrayal are part of the story.
We talk about how Dr. Himes found their way into working with transgender clients, why many well-intentioned clinicians still hesitate, and how a trauma-informed lens can help us understand anger and guardedness as protection rather than “resistance.” We dig into identity-affirming therapy as dignity-affirming care and self-determination, including why it can be more healing to honor a client’s self-definition early on than to rush toward certainty or a perfect clinical formulation. Dr. Himes also shares how psychodynamic psychotherapy makes room for contradiction, parts of self, and shifting truths without treating clients as deceptive.
We also zoom out to the sociopolitical climate and what helps when anxiety spikes: boundaries around the news, a return from hypervigilance to inner focus, and simple co-regulation that prioritizes breath and presence. Finally, we touch the tender terrain of spirituality and religious trauma, and the idea that deep therapy is “soul work” that helps people grow back the parts of themselves they had to hide.
If this conversation supports you, subscribe, share it with someone who cares about LGBTQIA+ mental health, and leave a review so more people can find the show. What’s one idea you’re taking with you?
Learn more about Dr. Himes here: https://drhimes.com/
Chapters
0:00
Welcome And Guest Introduction
1:34
Finding The Work With Trans Clients
4:41
What Providers Still Get Wrong
8:08
Pronouns As A Safety Barometer
10:54
Dignity And Self Determination In Care
16:27
Psychodynamic Therapy With Layered Selves
22:24
Coping With Political Threat And Anxiety
28:21
From Hypervigilance To Inner Focus
35:35
Spirituality After Religious Trauma
42:48
Parenting That Stewards Rather Than Contains
49:09
Where To Learn More About Dr Himes
51:47
Expansion Through Nature And Joy
53:20
ISSTD Resources And Listener Invitation
Full Transcript
Welcome And Guest Introduction
Lisa Danylchuk 0:04
Welcome back to the How We Can Heal podcast. Today, our guest is Dr. Lou Himes, a licensed psychologist and certified specialist in transgender mental health, whose work sits at the intersection of trauma, identity, and deep relational care. Dr. Himes is the founder and clinical director of a queer-centered group practice, where they specialize in supporting LGBTQIA plus individuals, particularly in the areas of gender-affirming care, complex trauma, and dissociation. Their approach is integrative and deeply human, blending psychodynamic, relational, and evidence-based practice while honoring the lived experience of the body, identity, and the impact of social systems on mental health. Known for their affirming, sex-positive, and intersectional lens, Dr. Himes brings both clinical expertise and community-rooted wisdom to their work, helping to reimagine what truly inclusive care can look and feel like. Since Dr. Himes is speaking at the ISSTD conference this Thursday, I'm releasing this episode early. In case you want to come and learn from them in person, they'll be presenting Thursday afternoon opposite me. Go see theirs. We can talk later here. And then I'll be on the plenary on Saturday as well. So please come join us if you're inspired to. And join me now in welcoming Dr. Himes to the show.unknown 1:34
Dr.Lisa Danylchuk 1:34
Himes, welcome to the How we can Hill podcast. Great to have you here. Thank you for having me. Yeah. So I want to start by you and I share a background in the field of trauma and dissociation. So I'm curious how you found your way into that world of work.SPEAKER_00 1:52
Well, my initial kind of specialization after graduating with my doctorate was with working with transgender folks. I had been in college counseling for a long time. And uh kind of a funny story, there was a trans man at the college that I was working at, unbeknownst to me, uh, but he apparently saw me walking from my car one day into the college counseling center and was like, maybe that person can actually help me. Uh and, you know, kind of recognizing a shared queerness. And so he came in and asked to speak with me. And I had, you know, um, my best friend at that point was going through transition. And I was kind of on the edge of starting to really understand my own non-binary gender identity. But I'd never worked with a trans person. And so he came in and said, Can you help me get, you know, get ready ready for surgery and get letters? And I said, I have no idea what I'm doing, but if you're okay with me learning along the way, then sure. And he was like, if somebody's willing to help and try, I'll take anything. And so I got a supervisor who had been working with trans folks for two decades at that point. And I started working with this guy to help him get ready for surgery. And and so that was in 2012, 2013, maybe. And then my practice in two years, I went from working in college counseling to being full-time in private practice because the second I started to say I can work with trans people, my practice just exploded. Yeah. And I was able to go out on my own, which had been what I thought was going to be a long-term working goal, but it was a very short-term goal. And so then I my practice filled almost completely with trans people overnight.Lisa Danylchuk 3:38
Yeah.SPEAKER_00 3:38
And that was, you know, I went out on my own in 2015.Lisa Danylchuk 3:42
Okay.SPEAKER_00 3:43
And uh, so I started working with trans people, and things just start, I started to kind of feel like clinically I was like starting to hit a wall of my ability to be helpful. It just kind of felt like I I need more to understand. I didn't even know what I didn't understand. It just felt like there's something missing that I need in order to really work with the folks I'm working with. And it just so happens that ISSTD had a regional conference in New York that year in 2019. And so I went and I was like, oh, this is what I need. So I started working towards certification, and my clinical work started to pick back up again in terms of my feelings of efficacy. And so that is how I found myself kind of into this really niche place of both having a specialty and working with trans people, and now being, you know, more trauma competent in my care as well.
What Providers Still Get Wrong
Lisa Danylchuk 4:40
Yes, so niche and so necessary. I'm wondering what you see that's missing from the larger field of care, whether it's the trauma world or just the psychotherapy world across the board, in terms of ability to help. Uh, we'll just focus on transgender folks for now.SPEAKER_00 5:04
That's uh that's an interesting question. Because what I do see is that there are a lot of really well-intentioned and you know folks who really want to support and provide care, competent care for trans people. And so I don't think that there's actually a dearth of willingness. And I also don't think there's necessarily a dearth of competence. I don't think it's quite as complex as we all think it might be, or I think there's kind of a bit of a mystique which might create some like fear around how do I do this well? I also, as a member of the trans community and somebody who's worked with within my community for a while, we also, you know, we have we have some anger around uh systems and having been betrayed by systems for so long. And so there is also, I think there's kind of this sense of like, well, if I like from the provider's perspective, what if I get it wrong? Are people gonna get mad at me? Is this trans person gonna get upset? Are they gonna, you know, maybe even become attacking? Um and I think that that is like a really a big issue that the providers have to kind of grapple with and kind of being willing to maybe sit with some hostility, of course, obviously in a self-protective way, but being able to interpret that through a trauma lens, right? And because that's how I think we can be most helpful for trans folks who are in that predicament.
Pronouns As A Safety Barometer
Lisa Danylchuk 6:28
Yeah, I think this applies across maybe multiple contexts of that fear. There's the willingness, the good intention, the training, the capacity in many sense, and then this sense of, well, uh-oh, well, what if I get it wrong? Well, what if someone gets mad? And I think that fear is coming maybe from the place of there is anger, and that anger is there for a reason. And if we have that context of the betrayal and with betrayal, a natural response being anger or rage or hostility, if we can really hold that, when you talk about that self-protective, it's like if we can hold that in a relationship, if that hostility isn't coming up so soon in the relationship that it ruptures it, right? Yeah. Because if you start out a session outright and any client is berating a therapist, that's not gonna work. But there has to be some foundation of enough willingness to try to trust or to connect or assumption of goodwill or something. There has to be something there. Uh, but that piece feels important too, because you mentioned this person watching you and going, maybe that person can help me. So there's something about there's something about representation and or perception of representation, right? Because there's what we what we all see and all the lenses we see through. But there's something about transgender folks having an opportunity to go, maybe that person can help me. Maybe that person understands the community that I'm in or can hold a safe enough place for me to lean into and share what I'm going through.SPEAKER_00 8:08
Yeah, I think that is, you know, I think so much of what we experience surface level kind of day-to-day from trans folks is really a assessing out of safety.SPEAKER_02 8:23
Yeah.SPEAKER_00 8:24
Right. I think pronouns are a big part of that. Right. It's a really quick way to get a sense of how safe you are with another person. Um, are do they take your pronouns seriously? Do they try? Do they accept or acknowledge that they have, you know, made a mistake if they've made a mistake? Like it's just a really brilliant strategy for, and I'm not saying it's unconscious or intentional, but like it's a really great way to get a very quick read on your environment and the people in it. And it can be really, really reassuring and or disconcerting very quickly.Lisa Danylchuk 9:00
Yeah. This makes me think of, for some reason, a colleague that was actually in the legal field who had an assistant who lived in a different area of the United States. And with a colleague of mine said, we're adding pronouns to our emails signatures. This was years ago. And the assistant had a really big pushback to it. And I don't know how it ended up resolving. I know it resolved with the pronouns being added. I don't know how long the relationship continued because there was all of this. I don't know what, because I wasn't there. I heard it secondhand, but so much wrapped up into something seemingly so simple. Like, hey, we're updating our taglines. Can you just add your pronouns in there? And so I think what you're saying, there's there's a lot of richness there in terms of is this a safe place for me? And if someone is resisting that, right? That's I don't know, it's an indicator of what might be under the surface in terms of a of a very real sense of safety.SPEAKER_00 10:08
Absolutely. And it's not just a kind of am I safe, am I not safe? It's not like a nominal like category. It's it's a barometer. There's a range of responses. And as a trans person, you get used to kind of what you're gonna get, like you can pick up on it real quick. And and it helps you to kind of get a sense of, okay, well, this might be a well-meaning person, but this is still not a safe person, versus this is a well-meaning person who is also safe, or right, somebody who is just off the charts, like not okay for me. And so it really kind of can kind of give you a spectrum of of a sense of where do I hold back, where do I open up? And it I think again, I think it's a really great strategy.Lisa Danylchuk 10:54
Yeah, it's making me think too about some things evolving in the world of trauma dissociation where we focus on dignity-affirming care or we focus on shame-sensitive care, and we focus more on context of like, okay, what's going on in the sociopolitical climate? What's going on, what's the history here? And and not just the history that's in the books that I got in elementary school, but what's the what's the more rich context and what do I not know? Uh, and that humility element. So I'm wondering from your experience and expertise and perspective, when you think of identity-affirming care, this could be transgender or queer or anything, any intersectionalities that you work with, what are some principles that stand out to you that just feel important for providers to orient to, but also for clients and patients to sniff out for?SPEAKER_00 11:50
Yeah, I mean, I think it's there's a lot going on in our culture right now that, you know, from a 40,000-foot view, we're kind of calling identity politics. But I think in the more individual from the more individual perspective, we are starting to as a larger culture ask one another for consideration. Yes. Like at an individual level. And part of that is uh saying, hey, if I identify with a particular group or a particular experience, basically, will you hold that for me? Right? Like, will you value that? I love the word dignity. Will you will you give me the dignity of self-determination? And can your mind and ultimately, I'd say your heart like uh expand to encompass that, which is ultimately what creates a sense of safety.SPEAKER_02 12:50
Yeah.SPEAKER_00 12:50
Um and so yeah, I think that identity, you know, there are certainly times I find this a lot working with um queer people because there's such a huge overlap between queerness and um neurodivergence. And or at least whether there's like an actual like clinical overlap, there's certainly like a cultural overlap where people are like, well, if I'm queer, I'm most likely neurospicy. Uh and and there's all it's becoming almost a matter of identity of like, these are these are my people, this is my tribe. Yeah. And so, especially working with some teenage queer people, I don't work with very many minors, but I I've had a handful over my career. And right, it's so, especially with teens, you see it so clearly on the surface, how much they're jockeying and juggling, like, is this me? Is that me? Put it on, take it off, throw it out. Um, and if at any point we we kind of say, well, well, that, but that's not, but that's not, right? Like, like the amount of shame that that induces, and the then the amount of collapse on the identity exploration process. And so, like there are there are certainly times where I might be sitting with someone and they're just going on and on and on about their neurodiversity. And I might be sitting there thinking, uh, this might be neurodiversity and it might be the complex trauma we haven't explored at all yet. Yeah. And I'm not totally convinced one way or the other. Not that I need to be convinced, but like in order to help, I need to know how to sit with you, right? And I'm not sure how best to sit with you in terms of my understanding of the broader clinical picture. But I can absolutely 100% sit with you by just accepting your self-definition, yes, and and your autonomy to, you know, self-determination, right? And that is good enough at the beginning. In fact, it's probably even better than an accurate clinical picture in the beginning, right? Like, because it's so much about will you hold me and will you honor my identity as it is?Lisa Danylchuk 15:00
Yeah. Will you see me and will you believe me? I hear in that too, which is you know, applies to so many folks coming in for therapy. Like, do you see me how I feel myself to be today? Do you do you believe me? Do you trust what I'm saying is true, which can get so complex in the world of trauma and dissociation too, because of and I always I think this sometimes I'm just like on a walk. It's like I I truly deeply believe my clients, and I have so much room for whatever else, what that evolves into, right? Like I believe everything you're telling me, and I've been on this path enough where things change, and that's totally okay. Like, yeah, I still trust you because you're telling me your truth. And some of those truths are more, I don't know, enduring than others, right? Some of those are are lifelong 150% truths, and some of those are 100% truths today, and and it shifts. And I think that can add just this layer of complexity too, of especially with the betrayal that you mentioned before, and especially with the trust, and especially with the importance of you know, for any human being to feel seen, but also met right where they are, right?SPEAKER_00 16:27
Yeah. Yeah, I'm presenting at the conference next week, doing a pre-conference workshop for ISSTD in Portland next week. And my particular topic is kind of the intersection between transgender, working with transgender folks and psychodynamic psychotherapy. And so, because that's that's my clinical home and rooting. And, you know, as a psychodynamically oriented therapist, and certainly as a trauma-focused therapist, right? Like we have to be aware that there's so much more going on under the surface than what you can actually see in any given moment. And that doesn't mean that a person is like lying or deceiving if it changes from one minute to the next minute. Uh in fact, I was just sitting with someone this morning who literally said one thing to me, and then I said something in response, and then they said the exact opposite of what they just said. Yes. And it was a beautiful moment for us to be able to be like, hey, you want this from me on one hand, and you want this from me on the other, and they're diabolic, like they're completely opposite. What a horrible position for you to be in, right? That because no matter what happens, you you you're gonna get disappointed, you're gonna get triggered, you're gonna be upset in some way. It's gonna be disappointing. And that doesn't mean that somebody's being manipulative or right, it's just the self reveals itself in this very layered way. And so, right, and dismissive kind of parenting really shuts down this self-exploration of these different parts of self.Lisa Danylchuk 18:07
Yeah.SPEAKER_00 18:08
And so then a per a person has to become smaller and smaller and smaller and less flexible and less aware of who they are. And that is, I think, in a lot of ways, I mean, I mean, ultimately it's it's so much more infinitely complicated than this, right? It's an absolute uh boiling this down. But it that is the crux, I think, of kind of the human condition is that we have that we just make ourselves smaller and smaller and smaller to fit into some kind of cultural, familial dynamic or expectation.SPEAKER_02 18:44
Yeah.SPEAKER_00 18:45
And it just crushes the soul.Lisa Danylchuk 18:47
You're speaking to so much truth right now because I just feel so much within me that like so many responses, right? In terms of, I mean, the biggest one is like, fuck that. This is so pointless. Like, I mean, it's pointless, but I think there we exist within sociopolitical systems where there is some point, right? Or we've exists within structures in society where there's uh some kind of backwards reasoning around it. But I just feel like from a mental health humanitarian soul-centered, it's like, why, right? Why should any of us ever have to feel painted into a box, you know, or made to feel small? I mean, we know this, the impact of violence and harm and trauma and of certain uh ways that that I don't know, humans have learned to or practiced relating with each other. But it's it's also sad. It's so sad to think of that. So, like, as you even say that, I hear and feel within me the anger and the sadness around that. And even think of something that's might not seem related, but I was working out this morning and they were playing this misogynistic music. And I was like, really, are we still like, I don't want to hear that while I'm trying to run as fast as I can in my female body? I don't want to hear degrading things being done to a female body to motivate me to what? Like it, and I'm like, this coach has a daughter, like I'm just confused. Mama needs to step out. I have a daughter too, as a layer. I'm like, I need to step out for a second, take a breath. Do I want to run home instead of running on this treadmill? And I almost did. And I waited for the song to pass and I went back in, but because mom was also paying for a membership at the gym, but so many layers to all of this. And you know, it's clockwork every episode. I shout out uh Dr. Jennifer Gomez, who will be at the conference that that we're both speaking at too, about dreamstorming. Like, I would love to live in a world where like people can just be people and we can just be who we are and explore who we are, and it doesn't have to um like so much reaction to that or so much suppression of that. Yeah. I think I'm gonna release this episode early because it was gonna come out right after the conference, but I think I'm gonna release it on Tuesday so people can come see you if they get a chance. Oh, awesome.SPEAKER_00 21:17
And you you're presenting as well.Lisa Danylchuk 21:19
Yeah, yeah. So Bethany Brand, Dr. Jennifer Gomez, my mom, Lynette Thanalchuk, and myself will be one of the plenaries um right after Melissa Kaufman on Saturday. And then I'm doing a pre-conference on um just uh nurturing multiple selves, right? The clinician, the clients, the parts, all of the layers of this work. And so we're presenting at the same time, so I can't like go and see you. But yeah.SPEAKER_00 21:45
Well, hopefully we'll maybe we'll be able to check out the recordings. But yeah.Lisa Danylchuk 21:48
Yeah, yeah. And I think you're also are you also doing a workshop or something online coming soon with ISSTD?SPEAKER_00 21:55
Yeah, I'm gonna be doing a workshop through ISSTD as well in late April. It'll be actually like reverse order, but it'll be kind of a uh an intro level on the same topic. So a more uh kind of basic version of psychodynamic work with uh trans folks. And then the one at the conference will be more in-depth, kind of intermediate level. Nice on the same topic. Yeah.
Coping With Political Threat And Anxiety
Lisa Danylchuk 22:23
Awesome.unknown 22:24
Yeah.Lisa Danylchuk 22:24
There's two threads I want to pick up on, and I feel like they're contrasted, but maybe there's a relationship there. You talked about your psychodynamic training, but also just the current sociopolitical climate that we've been talking about. So one thing I'm really curious about is what you're seeing be helpful for folks, particularly in the transgender and queer communities, given the current sociopolitical climate. And maybe there's some psychodynamic tools in there. If not, we can pick up that thread later. Sure.SPEAKER_00 22:54
Yeah, you know, I have noticed uh, well, there's a couple things going on here. So I let me just start by saying I'm I am a unique professional, and therefore my clientele are kind of unique in that like we co-create, right? We co-create space. And people who are attracted to working with me are more attracted to also like my kind of style and how I am in the world. And so I think I want to keep that in mind when I say this, because I don't think this is going to be the case for everyone. But my clients aren't talking a whole lot about what's happening in the socio-political environment. Every now and then, someone will come in and say, this thing happened this week and I need to process this because I'm having a lot of anxiety about it. But and and things were a little more intense at the beginning of 2025. As rights were starting to be stripped away one by one, there was a lot more of fearfulness about having to flee the cut flee the country. And people were kind of creating these escape plans, and there was a lot of anxiety around when they might have to utilize that escape plan. And I think that, you know, now that it has become more normalized, the amount of stress that we are living in every day, there isn't as much conversation about it. Um, but I do think this is a population that has historically had to rely a lot on dissociation in order to survive. And it makes a lot of sense that that is also a way that they are continuing to cope in a non-pathological way, I would say, like thinking about this every minute of every day is not good for anyone. And so though trans people continue to be a highly active in the so in a social justice kind of way group of folks, I am starting to see people really starting to realize that they have to protect their mental health first.SPEAKER_02 24:56
Yeah.SPEAKER_00 24:57
And taking a step back. And for some of them, it took it staking a year and change to say, I'm not going to check the news every day because it dysregulates me every day.SPEAKER_02 25:05
Yeah.SPEAKER_00 25:06
And because the commitment is so strong to stay engaged and stay um rebellious. Um, but I'm not hearing a whole lot about it. And so what I am noticing is when it becomes really acute, so panic attacks.SPEAKER_02 25:25
Yeah.SPEAKER_00 25:25
And then it's just a process of nothing else matters in this moment, but your breath.SPEAKER_02 25:33
Yeah.SPEAKER_00 25:34
Right. We're just gonna breathe. And if we spend the whole session just sitting here breathing together and co-regulating, then that then that's a a session well spent.SPEAKER_02 25:43
Yeah.SPEAKER_00 25:44
But other than that, it's kind of like acute or kind of when it can be dissociated, it's kind of staying on the lower levels. And also, I I will also say I have been through a lot of personal growth in the last year and a half. I have had a lot of life change, very significant upheaval in my life, which has caused a lot of distress, but also a lot of growth for me. And so I'm actually starting to see that as I am getting healthier and growing, my clients are also starting to really take off in their own growth process, which is just so beautiful and wonderful and such an honor to watch happen. So a lot of them are also, yes, maybe perhaps utilizing dissociation around the bigger socio-political stuff, but they're also like so focused on themselves and what's happening in their own process right now. And that's actually really beautiful. And so I think there's less outward focus on the threat, right? And more inward focus on the self, which is exactly what we would want in travel-focused work anyway. And so I think when our you know, when clients feel safe enough, despite the bigger, the bigger issues, like they can still do that work.Lisa Danylchuk 26:57
I don't know if that was a real clear answer to your question. Oh, yeah, that's that's an excellent answer. And it sounds like such a healthy boundary, right? Like it's dissociation, but it's also I'm not gonna swim around in that. I'm gonna swim around internally. I'm gonna connect with myself and what's true. And yes, the threat's there. Maybe there's some dissociation around the response to that, or there's some separation historically. Okay, that I was really responding to that in 2025. But this year or today, I'm gonna, I mean, the the phrase reclaim my power is so overused and and cliche, but that's what's happening, right? It's it's actually connecting with the power of your boundaries of your mind, of your energy. Where's my energy gonna go? Is it gonna get swept up in the news cycle every morning and then ride that for the whole day? Or am I gonna wake up and meditate with my cat in my lap for five minutes and have a totally different experience and then go see my therapist who I vibe with and sit and breathe together and talk about my relationships or my work or how I'm growing or what's important to me. It's like just it's centering, it's centering in such a beautiful way. And I think, yeah, that for so many of us who are passionate about sociological issues, there's a draw to stay engaged. But what does that look and feel like for us is super important.
From Hypervigilance To Inner Focus
SPEAKER_00 28:20
Yeah.unknown 28:21
Yeah.SPEAKER_00 28:22
It's interesting. I just had a thought as you were talking, how that kind of dynamic of turning away from the sociopolitical and to and inward is in a way a representation of or a shadow of what a child does when they have a scaregiver or or you know, an abusive caregiver. So much of what the child has to do is focus on the caregiver, right? Like be watching them, what is their mood? How are they like, what are they gonna be like today? Am I gonna be safe? And so much of the mental energy is in that hyper-vigilance of the outside. Um, and am I gonna be all right? And so the capacity then to turn inward and be able to kind of say, I'm safe enough to be able to focus on myself and not have to be hyper-vigilant about what's happening outside.SPEAKER_02 29:18
Yeah.SPEAKER_00 29:19
Like, I mean, that it that to me feels like right, children who are actually in that scenario have to turn inward and dissociate to get out of it. But what a kind of a shadow but more healthy option to be able to do that in this way now with kind of the the scaregiver being a political regime.Lisa Danylchuk 29:41
Yeah, yeah. I'm having visions in my mind as you're talking of uh drawings that clients will do. And you know, I grew up with a mom, both parents are therapists, uh, and they had a private practice together, and my mom focused on dissociative identity, worked with dissociative identity, and she would have these big panels of art paper on the wall. And then I've done artwork with clients over the years. The theme of when there's a scaregiver, when there's a very real threat in a family or immediate environment, that I've seen so many drawings where there's a figure crouched in in a protective stance, and there's energy from the outside coming in, or there's you know, dark lines or something harsh coming in, or or you know, all kinds of representations of that thorns or something, right? And then and this figure sort of crouched into a corner. And then the the opposite that I've seen is this sense of eminence or spreading out, or light, or color, and creativity, and rather than this sense of things being contracted, or or you know, I really see violence when I see those images. It's like there's this harshness coming in and someone's trying to protect, but there's nowhere to go, versus it's safe around and I can expand and I can explore, and there's squiggly lines of purple over here, and there's yellow, and there's like sunshine, whatever. I mean, I just see this sort of montage of the artwork and the difference of environment and context for a human, whether they're being harmed or cared for, right? Essentially, whether there's there's any sense of safety or not. And and and it makes me think too of what you were describing earlier of just being being made to be small versus being seen where you are and having that space to stretch into, you know, within your skin and then beyond your skin, right? Like it so I think of someone, perhaps someone like that client who saw you walking across the parking lot being like, Oh, I can go talk to that person. Okay, so there's the the layer we both know of can I do I know this within myself? Can I accept this thing that feels like it might be true right now? Then can I tell another person? Are they gonna be cool with that? Are they gonna, is that gonna be okay? Are we still are we gonna have a relationship that feels helpful or good? And then is there a community? And then is there, well, what about my whole university say, or what about my employer, or what about my church or my culture, or the right? There's just all these expanding layers. And um, yeah, again, just the dream storm for folks to be able to stretch out. And then I think of a client I had who, you know, I think I saw them for 10 years, and it was maybe six years in that they started to explore, hmm, let me like, what's going on with my sexuality here? I'm not quite sure. And over time came to know and feel and identify as a lesbian. And and then we're like, why didn't I know that about myself? And I was like, Well, where'd you grow up? In the South. And what would have happened if you knew that about yourself? Well, I probably wouldn't have had a family or I would have had judgment from friends, I think, and from the community. It's like, well, there's a big risk in knowing that then, wasn't there?SPEAKER_00 33:02
So absolutely.Lisa Danylchuk 33:05
So we can we can dream storm a world that's safe enough for that, but it's also, I think you're talking about with that not being the reality right now, there is the possibility, at least with folks that you're working with, to be with themselves, to focus on their inner world, and to have some sense of healthy disconnection from that some maybe layers of protection too. Like the therapy offers protection, the community offers protection.SPEAKER_00 33:36
Yeah.unknown 33:37
Yeah.SPEAKER_00 33:37
I think so many times we get as therapists, right? We get so, or as um people who want to help, we get so focused on a technique or a strategy or a goal. And I think for people whose identities, you know, whether that is a sexual identity, a gender identity, or or just like, you know, I'm I'm a woman or I'm a child or whatever. Whenever that becomes uh an avenue for potential violence or threat, just having presence is is safety, right? Like presence and co-regulation is the safety, and that is like the t the technique that's that is what is helpful. Yeah. Um to just have a space in this world, no matter how small, to know that you are going to be safe and cared for and witnessed, joined in in that space.Lisa Danylchuk 34:42
So yeah, yeah.SPEAKER_00 34:44
And when things get really dark and intense and threatening on the in the outside world, that space can be really small, right? It doesn't have to be expansive and still be completely life-sustaining for the person who's receiving it.Lisa Danylchuk 35:01
Yeah. Yeah, you can shine out into a single room and that still feels expansive. Yeah, exactly.SPEAKER_00 35:08
Yeah. I love that word. As you were talking about, you know, kind of reaching outwards. I the word expansive kept coming to mind. And, you know, I think of when I think of that word, I think of like a little a child with like their arms thrown up, just like, yay, like this is awesome, you know? And the freedom to have that kind of joy and that kind of experience is something that you can't have when you feel under threat.SPEAKER_02 35:31
Yeah.SPEAKER_00 35:32
Yeah, that's very real.Lisa Danylchuk 35:35
I'm curious how spirituality shows up in your work.SPEAKER_00 35:40
So I have a so sordid history with spirituality in that I was also, on top of everything else, and that makes me unique in my life. I was raised in an evangelical Christian family. And kind of even like a more culty version of evangelicalism, they kind of thought the other evangelicals were a little too out there and liberal. So I grew up in a very challenging environment in terms of there being just lots of religious order, lots of very close to me, like threat about my identity and who I was and all of that. So I have had an incredible process of kind of coming out of that environment because it was not ego-dystonic for me as a child and even as a teen. And in fact, I didn't really leave that community until my mid-20s. And so it has been a process of for me to heal enough to be able to tolerate spirituality in my own work, let alone in my own life. And but as I mentioned before, like I've had some really big upheavals in the last couple of years, and that that peace in my life is something that I'm starting to reconcile with, not religion, but spirituality. And I am seeing, since I am becoming more open to thinking about it, talking about it, my clients are also talking about it more, which is always just such a great reminder, right? That our limitations affect the work. But I don't mean limitations in a bad way, just we all have them and they affect work. And so I'm starting to be able to have some conversations with clients that they, you know, I it's always kind of a complex issue, especially, especially when you're working with queer people, um, to talk about anything kind of spiritual and feeling, unless it's like witchcraft or uh, you know, something like that that feels more rebellious and edgy. Um, but uh because there is a lot of trauma and there's a lot of judgment. Um and so it's tough to kind of find that balance sometimes and walk that line. But I think ultimately the way I really understand the work that I do as as a psychologist and as a trauma therapist is it's soul work. Like it is about reclaiming the parts of the soul that got squished and trampled and beat out of us. And it's understandable that you know, queer people have such a strong um pushback toward uh religious communities that have oppressed them, but that is also a pocket of healing that needs to happen because then there's a pushing away of parts of this and aspects of the self in order to reject that larger category of experience and and rejection that has already been put on them. And so it's a touchy subject uh with a lot of queer people, but I think it's a really important one, uh, and one that, you know, I believe we are all innately spiritual beings, and that that gets squashed out of us. And so there's always this if it feels to me there's always a seed or a kernel within the client themselves that kind of starts as like, you know, a seedling that can begin to be watered and can kind of grow into a process that allows them to open up to that aspect of their own self. But it is something I feel like we have to be like intentional about and thoughtful about.Lisa Danylchuk 39:44
Yeah. I love the imagery of the seed because we're also talking about expansion and growth. And I was mentioning the sunlight in the drawings I had seen, and it just feels like the reminder, my brain has been so in ecopsychology lately, like we are nature, we're not that separate from it. And when we can, you know, relate even in those metaphors or in okay, this is I'm growing, or I'm I'm I'm a flower, but I'm in a tight bud and I want to expand when we can feel a relationship to those natural processes around us. Something about that feels very nourishing for me, right? Like, oh yeah, we're we're a part of all of this. And of course, a human being, human body is different than a rose, but it's nice to notice that connection coming through organically in the way that we're thinking and talking about the soul and and it wanting to express and it just needing to be what it is. A rose is a rose. We're not like, why aren't you a tree? Like, well, uh, don't really have an answer for you there because I'm a rose. Yeah.SPEAKER_00 40:57
Well, I mean it's I mean, when we use that analogy, right? The analogy of like plant and and and like natural life, we see the the kind of oppressive mentality that humanity brings in that, like we don't just let a rose be a rose. We gotta make it the perfect rose. We've got to hybrid it with this rose to get it to be just like that. And like, right. And then we're gonna like, what's the right word when you put your stamp on something? You uh patent, yeah. Yeah, you like patent your kind of tree, and nobody else is allowed to have your kind of tree without it's just like, oh my god, humanity, like what are we doing? Like it's nature is so perfect and so beautiful in and of itself. Why are we not investing our time and energy in learning how it does what it does instead of trying to make it what we think it should be? And I think it's the same for children, right? I mean, I think so much of the the complex childhood trauma that folks experience that is not rooted in abuse is kind of that. Like it's this parenting mentality of like you need to be what the world says you need to be. Yeah, not I, as your parent, need to steward who you are into being in this world and help you figure out how to do that in a way where you get to be expansive and be you, right? But it's this mentality of how do I fit you into the world? So, in a lot of ways, right? So, so that it doesn't make me feel uncomfortable with how the world thinks about me as a parent.Lisa Danylchuk 42:34
Yeah.SPEAKER_00 42:35
And I think that's where we we get a lot of really complex trauma that is not about violence, you know, but it's still traumatic and it's still threatening.
Parenting That Stewards Rather Than Contains
Lisa Danylchuk 42:47
Yeah. And it goes right back to beyond just attachment dynamics, it's a whole parenting approach. And it it makes me think too of are we considering time in humanity as the people who've been around longer teaching to the people who quote just got here, right? Or are we learning from every new generation? And I think ideally there's both, right? There's a sharing of wisdom that's been learned through years on the earth, and then there's an openness and learning to, hey, what are you what are you bringing in? Who who is this unique person? And if the parenting strategy is I must fit my child into the world as it exists today, well, by the time they're in their 20s, it's not going to be the same world. So that's a disservice right there because you're trying to fit them into the past, and that's not where they're going.unknown 43:42
Yeah.Lisa Danylchuk 43:42
So there needs to be some openness or humility and just the curiosity of. I mean, I love having a young child and like getting to know her, right? Like getting to know what you like and what are you interested in. And you know, she's at the Point in her life will she'd be like, Mama, wear this dress, and I'm like, where did that come? I don't want to wear that dress today. Like, and even working with it of like, okay, I could like play with you and do these things, but sometimes mama's got boundaries too. Like, I don't want to, I don't want to trip over my longest dress today. But I like the dress that touches the floor. Why that's so interesting that you like the dress that touches the floor, but you want it to drag. Okay, cool. Right. And you can wear that. We're gonna like watch for safety. You don't want you to fall, but like you can put eight layers of clothing on, just the things that that it with idle time that that she'll find herself getting into. You know, it it I love it's just so amazing to be able to be a witness and to learn. And and I do think, you know, that that part of the joy of that is also me feeling as a result of the work that that I've done and folks in my family have done, feeling like that's also good for her. Like we also be like, I love learning from her and seeing who she is, but I'm also like, oh, like I want you to have that experience of the opposite of what's shown up in my office so many times of feeling constrained or um you know, limited in a really harmful way. Like I want you to just have that ability to expand and not hit a hard edge. Uh and you know, we're all human and no parent is perfect, but I do feel like that shift from I mean, I think like perfection in parenting is kind of a pointless conversation, but like that, but that shift from uh trying to contain versus stewarding feels really central for everyone, for anyone who's around young people or wants to help and be generative with their friends or other humans. Yeah.SPEAKER_00 45:55
I I I find that parents gotta we I feel like as parents we've gotta get better at just being okay with acknowledging our mistakes to our children. Yes. Right? Like what on earth makes us think that we don't make mistakes and that we can't like I feel like there's this kind of sense of like you lose some kind of authority with your child if you acknowledge that you messed up and it's like my goodness. That's how we validate for them that what they feel in relationship is true. Yeah, right. It's not that, well, my parents are perfect, so I must be wrong. It's like my parent messed up and I felt that and it sucked. And then, oh my god, they came and they acknowledged it to me. That validates what I felt. It teaches me to trust my internal sense of the world, and like that is so healthy and helpful. Yeah, and it teaches the child the gives them the capacity to do the same, like to admit their own mistakes and not feel like a failure, or right that to not have to cling to their own security by being right. You can be secure and be wrong.Lisa Danylchuk 47:09
Yes, yeah, that's so essential. Just the other day, I was recording a podcast intro, and my partner and daughter came up the stairs to the front of the house and the dog was barking, and I said, And then as they came in, my partner was like, Oh, were you yelling at Isabella? And I was like, No, I was yelling, oh my god, I have to be more trauma-formed with my dogs. Cause I mean, why is it okay for me to yell at my dogs? But when my daughter thought I was yelling at her, no, I was like, Oh my gosh, like, come here, I need to tell you, like, and you know, she's two, so like, oh, I want to play with this. I was like, Can you come here? Can you talk to mama for a second? I just want to make sure you know that I wasn't yelling at you at the door. And she's, you know, okay, yeah. I'm like, did that get through? Like, uh, but I think it's so important to to reality check if it's a misunderstanding, but also to be accountable, right? Of like, yeah, mommy's stressed today. Like, hey, like, let's let's work with that together best we can. Okay, like I'll do my best, you do your best. It's gonna be messy.SPEAKER_00 48:16
Yeah, we're humans, like, and that doesn't mean that we don't love each other, and it doesn't mean that we're gonna hurt each other, right? Like, and that and also I think look at some point, right? Like, we need a good enough parent. We don't need a perfect parent, we need a parent who makes mistakes, also in part so that we can learn that we can survive that. Yeah, right. Like, oh, I got hurt by somebody I love a lot. It wasn't intentional, but they took responsibility and look at me, I'm like, I'm okay.
Where To Learn More About Dr Himes
Lisa Danylchuk 48:47
Yeah, and I can do that too. I don't have to be perfect, right? Yes, like, oh, now when when I'm yelling and then my friend thinks I'm yelling at her, this is just life. This is just what happens, and I have a sense of what I can do with that and how to try to repair if I have hurt someone. Absolutely, yeah. Yeah. So, what would you say to anyone who's really interested in your research, wants to learn more? There's an ISSTD conference coming up for folks who are listening the day the episode drops. You can still register and come see us in Portland on Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday, Monday, actually, five-day conference, but your pre-conference is on Thursday afternoon. Any other places you would send them?SPEAKER_00 49:32
I have I have been historically kind of a an island in unto myself.SPEAKER_02 49:39
Yes.SPEAKER_00 49:39
And so I have not done a whole lot of that expanding out. I do believe that in my own healing process and my own personal growth, that is where I am headed. I don't have a lot to point folks to at this point, but I have been on the system speak podcast a couple of times, so you can go check out some episodes there. Um, I do have some research articles that are pretty old and dated at this point, but on um experiences of queer people in evangelical kind of Christian colleges and spaces. And uh yeah, I I hope that as I kind of get regroup grounded in myself that there will be more to come. But for right now, that's that's pretty much it.Lisa Danylchuk 50:22
And your website is drhimes.com. Drhimes.com.SPEAKER_00 50:27
Uh I also run a small group practice called Quip, uh, which stands for the Queer Identities Psychology Partnership. And um, we've we've worked pretty much exclusively with queer folks. I mean, anybody's welcome, but that's our specialty. Uh and so you could also check us out at quiptherapy.com.Lisa Danylchuk 50:46
Um nice. And if there's anyone who's super struggling or maybe has a client who's really struggling, any larger resources that you tend to appoint people to?SPEAKER_00 51:00
Let's see, larger resources. Well, I I cannot say enough how much I have benefited from the those who have come before at ISSTD and the mentorship and the supervision that is available there. Um, but it has been absolutely life affirming for me uh and growth uh affirming. So I I really say get involved in the community at ISSTD. It's it's such a wonderful space to be supported and to grow. Um yeah, um I think that's that's probably I mean, I love the Systems Beak podcast. It's just so informative and so helpful. But yeah, I think that's probably the things that I would mention. Awesome.Lisa Danylchuk 51:47
And I often ask at the end, what brings you hope or what brings you joy? I'm curious what brings you a sense of expansion.SPEAKER_00 51:54
That's a great question. A sense of expansion. Well, I live in central New York and I believe this is one of the most beautiful places in our country. I'm biased because I live here and it's amazing. But being out in nature, uh I cannot get enough of the lakes we have here, and there's just there are literally hundreds of waterfalls in any direction. You just pick a direction and go, and you're gonna find some. Uh, and the woods, there's so many natural parks and forests, and that is where I connect. I love to go foraging and gardening and just being out in the earth that we were talking about, which is such a great teacher about how to be and be well in this world.Lisa Danylchuk 52:38
I love that area too in this time of year. Oh, it's cold. It's just it's cold. Yes, it's cold, but then it turns to gold. It's like deed.SPEAKER_00 52:51
Yes, yeah, and there's just so much water everywhere, and it's just flowing and it's just so life-giving.
ISSTD Resources And Listener Invitation
Lisa Danylchuk 52:57
Uh love that well, I'm excited that you get to be out there, and I look forward to seeing you in person next week. And thanks so much for coming on the show and for all the work you do, and for yeah, thanks for having me. All all the love you bring to the work you're doing. I appreciate that. Thank you. I want to give a big shout out and extend a huge thank you to the International Society for the Study of Trauma and Dissociation, the ISSTD. If you've been listening to this podcast, you've heard me talk about ISS TD and the incredible researchers, clinicians, and advocates I've met during my time as a member and volunteer there. The ISSTD has been delving into the science and best practice of treating trauma and dissociation for over 40 years, and they have a rich catalog of educational offerings for both professionals and non-professionals on their website, cfas.isst-d.org. If you're a mental health professional, I highly recommend you consider becoming a member of ISSTD. I'd love to see you during the live educational offerings and at the annual conference happening so so soon in Portland, Oregon, starting March 26, 2026. Visit isst-d.org to learn more. You made it to the end of the episode. Thanks for listening all the way through. Now that you've been listening for a while, I'd love to hear back from you. What's an idea or a story from this episode that sticks with you as we wrap up? Or what's one small thing you can do today to choose a step in the direction of healing or growth? Share your answers and what's been healing for you in the comments below on YouTube, on Instagram at how we can heal, or send me a message at info at howwecanheal.com. Also check out howwecanheal.com for free resources, trainings, and the full transcript of each show. If you're listening and loving the show, please leave us a review on Apple, Spotify, Audible, or wherever you're listening right now. If you're watching on YouTube, click the buttons to like and subscribe, and keep sharing the show with anyone it could benefit. Before we wrap today, I want to be clear that this podcast isn't offering prescriptions, it's not advice, nor is it any kind of mental health treatment or diagnosis. Your decisions are in your hands, and I encourage you to consult with any healthcare professionals you may need to support you through your unique path of healing. In addition, everyone's opinion here is their own, and opinions can change. Guests share their thoughts, not that of the host or sponsors. I'd like to thank our guests today again, and everyone who helps support this podcast directly and indirectly. Alex, thanks for taking care of the babe and the furbix while I record. Last and never least, I'd like to send some love to my big brother Matt, who passed away in 2002. He wrote this music and it makes my heart so very happy to share it with you here. Until next time,
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