Today on How We Can Heal Podcast, Lisa Danylchuk talks with Suzanne O'Brien about the part in life that we all shouldn't rush nor fear. In this episode, if there's one ultimate takeaway from Suzanne, it'd be that 'love goes hand in hand with grief.' As a "Worldwide Leader in Healthcare," Suzanne shares how she trains people to care for departing loved ones from start to finish and the type of approach that proves how it's possible to face death with grace.
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Doulas in the Pandemic
Physical contact has become standard in the type of work that doulas do. As guides and support, doulas spend time with the clients they work with to provide assistance and care in many different ways. So when the pandemic hit, it was very easy to worry about how a doula could fulfill her role effectively. But, with End of Life, the halt of physical contact was not the end of it all.
Because telemedicine was proven effective at the many fronts of healthcare, End of Life came up with teledoula to address the demand for their services in a 'no-physical-contact' world. To supply the demand, online memorials were held for home wakes. When everyone's emotions heightened, this side of teledoula-ing proved to be an extraordinary way of harnessing the beauty and absurdity of using technology to connect.
About Suzanne O'Brien:
Suzanne B. O'Brien RN is a former Hospice and Oncology Nurse, International Speaker, and bestselling author. She is the Founder and Creator of The International Doulagivers Institute and the award-winning Doulagivers End of Life Doula Trainings. In 2015, Suzanne was Awarded "Worldwide Leader in Healthcare" by the International Nurses Association and named Oprah Magazine Humanitarian Brand Ambassador in 2019.
Suzanne B. O'Brien RN, the creator of Doulagivers, has been at the forefront of the End-of-Life Doula Movement in the United States since it began building momentum nearly a decade ago. She has developed free training designed for everyone based on her years of experience working with over one thousand end-of-life patients as a hospice nurse and palliative care professional to help make the end of life a more positive experience for us all.
The Level 1 End of Life Doula and Family Caregiver Training is a free course designed so that anyone and everyone can understand the basic end-of-life processes and how to suggest and offer comfort to families and patients throughout these processes.
Outline of the episode:
- [02:55] Your calling won't always make sense
- [06:03] When everyone thinks they're right—there's chaos
- [11:49] The Perfect Storm
- [18:12] Suzanne O'Brien – on the three-day home wake
- [24:30] The three (3) phases of caring for a loved one who is at the end of their life
- [29:40] Your body knows what to do
- [36:05] How to support people who can't be there for a departing loved one
- [42:03] Three (3) reasons why people hang on during their last moments
- [48:55] The Deathbed Test
- [54:30] You don't have to fear nor rush death
Resources:
Website: www.doulagivers.com
Creating Positive Passings: End of Life Doula, Level 1, Caregiver Training:
https://www.amazon.com/Creating-Positive-Passings-Caregiver-Training-ebook/dp/B00YWTUSUM
DOULAGIVERS® LIFE CLASS:
www.doulagivers.com
Doulagivers® Forgiveness Workshop:
https://www.suzannebobrien.com/doulagivers-forgiveness-workshop
Doulagivers® Life Cafe
Full Transcript Below:
00:00 Our guest today is Suzanne O'Brien. Suzanne is a former hospice and oncology nurse, international speaker and best-selling author. She's the founder and creator of the International doula givers Institute and the award-winning doula givers end of life training.
In 2015, Suzanne was awarded worldwide leader in health care by the International Nurses Association. And in 2019, she was named in Oprah Magazine humanitarian brand ambassador. Suzanne has been at the forefront of the end-of-life doula movement in the United States since it began building momentum nearly a decade ago. She's developed a free training based on her experience working with over 1000 End of Life patients as a hospice nurse and palliative care professional.
The level one end-of-life doula and family caregiver training is a free course designed so that anyone and everyone can understand the basic end-of-life processes, and how to offer comfort to families and patients throughout these transitions. You can find more information about her at doula givers.com. Susanna and I connect and that we encourage people to work with and embrace the uncomfortable truths in life, trauma and end of life with support and care. As you'll soon see, she brings warmth, care and deep love to her work. And we're so lucky to have her here with us today. Let's dive in. Hello, and welcome to the how we can heal podcast.
Intro to show: My name is Lisa, Daniel check. And I created this podcast to share deep conversations that encouraged us to move through life's toughest circumstances. Let's get talking about how we can heal. Let's go. Let's go. So happy to have you here. You look gorgeous. For those watching video. They'll know and you just emanate so much love and peace and support. And so I'll take that in for the next hour or so. And hopefully, others will as well.
Welcome. 01:54 Thank you so much for having me. And I have to say right back to you. You know, this is such a positive. There's so many challenging things happening in the world right now. But there's so many good things happening as well. Sometimes I wish there was just a news network that was all about the kindness and compassion and positive things out there because we don't hear those. But thank you for having this platform. And thank you for giving me an opportunity to be on it. 02:16
02:16
That's it, we need a new show that's like about how we can heal.
02:21
Why don't you create that? Okay.
02:24
I think that's what it is now. That's right. That's right. So thank you just for all the work you've done. And you continue to do I want to talk a little bit let's like, start by exploring just you and how you came to this work. And then I really hope that and I know that by the end of this, you know, people are gonna walk away with some tools, some places to go people who are facing grief or the loss of a loved one, which you know, given the pandemic we've just been through is all over the world and continues right? This is a part of life. People don't talk about. So I'm curious what led you to work with death and dying?
03:00
Thank you for asking that. And it's such an interesting thing, because it really talks about finding your purpose in life. And how there's a space that that calling is something that you have to trust in your heart, that it's not always going to be like making sense. So when I was younger, I became a nurse. And I remember being happy at being a nurse for sure. I loved it the helping profession. I grew up in a medical family. But I always had this feeling I'm like, there's more. There's I haven't really hit it yet. Like there was just an unease about it. And I kept hearing this inner voice at one point saying go to hospice, go to hospice, and I was like, why am I hearing that I have zero end of life experience, not nothing. Yeah. So would it make sense at the time to change a nursing job that was with good hours and better pay and the whole thing to go and take a hospice job, by the way with no experience? Yeah. And I said, You know what, I've tried to figure it out from this point, I haven't really hit it. I don't, you know, I haven't hit that daily peaceful, whatever I know is available to us in this journey. I said, I'm just going to trust this. Let me just trust this. And it took me about three times to apply to hospice. And the very first day I went out to see patients, I knew I was in the exact place I was supposed to be in in my life. And it was right there that like a piece of the puzzle fit in a way that is almost indescribable, of connection. And I said at that moment, I'm never going to make another decision. I do think about things, by the way. But I said, I'm never going to make another decision in my life other than this knowing inside of me, how does my body feel and I try and teach that to people because it's really the key to finding that. So that led me to hospice. And if you told me now that I would be doing something different, the doula givers Institute and working, I really probably wouldn't have believed you because I was so very happy there. But I kept saying yes to the universe and what was in front of me. And because you know, death is so very challenging right now in our world for most families, that there has to be a change. And so the change is teaching people how to care for loved ones bringing back that skill before we ever get there, but also Talking about the sacred, beautiful experience that death that used to be revered as and bringing that back and showing you why
05:08
05:08
I love so much and what you're doing right now. And I resonate personally with this, like, I don't know what's next. But I trust this and this. And this feels right, and it's in my bones and it's in my heart, and it's in my body. And there is sort of a struggle with the way the world set up and the way we have our work week and our hours and our pay, and it doesn't always exactly align with where your soul is being held. But I do feel like, you know, you're such a beautiful example of following that and finding that way. And, and I think it's important to that we trust that as we move forward in terms of collective healing, that more of us lean into that, and trust that and figure it out, yes, that that really leads us in a more sustainable and healing direction as a whole.
05:54
It really does. And I will talk about how I learned everything about life and how to live really fully by working with those at the end of life, right? Because at the end of life, it the Okay, so if I can break it down for us a little bit in clarity, there's four parts to us. So we're holistic beings, physical, mental, emotional, and spiritual. And at the end of life, I'm sitting bedside with people where I literally see the physical body diminishing, and the spiritual body growing. And there's a time in the journey, that people get what I call their spiritual wisdom, their spiritual eyes, and they're able to look back on their life's journey with all of this insight and wisdom, they're able to forgive, they're able to make sense of things. And it's such a loving, graceful place, that there's two directions. And this is really what I wanted to break down about when I followed my knowing, we have our mind which are analytical, and that what I call the internal Google that we have. So it's going to be based on everything that's been inputted from our upbringing, from our schooling from our culture. And that's where I feel like the chaos that we see out here is because everyone feels like they're right. Because if they're just going with their mind and their input, then the output is what's right for them. But it's, but it's only very small and one-dimensional. And then you have your heart centered wisdom, highest consciousness, and that is always going to be tied to unconditional love, the collective of peace. And if you know, the two are always directing, okay, and if we're not aware of it 95% of the time, the unconscious ego mind, which is the that mind, the small one is directing the show. And that's what we see out here is everyone in just this crazy state? And if you knew that, wait a minute, let me just sit quietly, let me let me go into my heart and see how this feels. If you follow that direction, we'd be in a much different place in this world.
07:52
Yeah. And when you attune to that, it's beyond the right and wrong, but the economies that we get caught up in of I'm right about this, or you're right about that, are we really wedged into our opinions, but there's something that's beyond that. And so what you're saying is that end of life, people sort of naturally I mean, I'm such a variety at this point. Yes. It sounds like people start to step into this state of wisdom and compassion and knowing and, and there's a sense of peace that you describe. And I know you and I have spoken before, you know, after my brother passed, I had this experience of going somewhere in a half-dream state and getting it all I was like, yes, yes. Okay. Yeah. And I understood in that moment, I could map it, I understood it like cognitively even. And then I came back, you know, I sort of drifted back to the, to the left for whatever reason, and I was like, Oh, I don't, I remember the feeling of it. And I remember the feeling of, of, of why that I go. But now I don't get why anymore.
09:01
Like, why I feel like I feel like there's somewhere in you that does, and I really do feel that way. But I also want to share is that this has been and I've been so honored and privileged to work with over 1000 people from all around the world, in different capacities at the bedside and in different religions and cultures, it all comes down to this spirituality. And it's and they say, and they literally will wake up from asleep saying, I get it now. We're all connected, that was meant to happen, that trauma wasn't meant to happen in order for me to grow in my spiritual evolution. And it's like, it's like a major healing that happens before they actually get to that other side. Now, this is what I want to share with you is that if we now we've removed end of life, basically from our society, we don't see it. We don't talk about it. And it's leading to just in the practical sense, deaths being 1000 times more difficult. But I also will tell you this it's the greatest teacher about how to live because if you heard from people, what they want you to know about your time is your most valuable commodity that it's all about unconditional love that forgiving is the best thing you could possibly do to shift energy and to align with that higher frequency. Now today, yes, it's all available to us. It's a choice and we want to share tools. And I feel like this is what we're doing today is being able to share that.
10:24
And this makes me think of Chris's interview. And you know, life has a terminal condition and popular hospice worker. Oh, no, of course, I'm forgetting her name. The five regrets, Top Five Regrets of the Dying Bronnie. Ware.
10:37
Yes. And it was with Lula Ross. And yeah, all of them are amazing. Yeah.
10:42
But there's this element of bring it forward. No, don't push it away. Because right now, if people go to homes, people get sort of, you know, shuffled into corners, and we don't really look at it. We don't connect with it. We do have some amount of ritual or ceremony, but usually after, right after,
10:59
and I don't even know that those are done, as well as they could be.
11:02
Yeah. And so what do you think it would look like to bring death in.
11:09
If you befriend death, it's the best thing you could possibly do for your life. So for me, I grew up in a medical family. So as a young girl growing up, I heard my parents talking about illness and death and compassion, with people going through it. So when I got into the medical world, and it was so dysfunctional, with our elderly, because we have an elder care crisis right now. I was wondering what happened. And then I'd saw people die alone in hospital rooms, and I thought, what's happening here, and I said, Let me and then I pulled to go to hospice, and I said, it will be better there. I know, it'd be better there. Because that's our end of life provider. And it wasn't, people weren't talking about it, they still aren't. And I said, what happened here, so 100 years ago, you know, death used to happen, first of all, our lifespan was much different, it was about 46. Now, it's 81. And it's going to continue to grow as they say, elongate, and death was more part of our natural life cycle. And so grandmothers used to hand down the skill of how to care for the dying to the grandchildren, people died in the home, the weeks are in the home. Somehow, in this last 100 years, we've totally removed it. And I kind of call it the perfect storm. You know, we've taught our doctors how to keep people alive. But keeping alive and living are two very different things. And, and we also don't see end of life, and somehow the fear of death became number one. And we were even the language we use, he lost his battle, keep fighting. I'm so sorry. There's no more I can do for you. This all points to this enemy. And let me ask you this, Lisa, were in our journey, did we make death the enemy, the ultimate enemy? I think we have to start to change our perspective, because I have been so honored to be in end of life, not many, by the way, but we're getting there that have been so incredibly beautiful, and loving and sacred. And you will never walk out of a room like that and look at life the same way in the best way possible. So I think it's just, you know, that kind of perfect storm of where we are now and what it looks like, if we brought that back. I think we'd have and we are going to have the most loving, caring world because it teaches you about presence and gratitude and compassion and that we're all connected. Yeah. What more can you ask for?
13:27
It's like watching a birth. Right?
13:30
It is.
13:31
It is submission. Its transition. Yeah, we associate joy with birth, and we associate sadness with death. But when you have the spiritual context, like you're describing that changes things. That's right. Absolutely. It's so interesting. You bring up, you know, where did we get so afraid of death, because that makes me think straight to PTSD and the diagnostic criteria for PTSD. And it's really an experience like a threat of death that often will initiate PTSD. So I think a lot about the biological will sort of stay alive. But it is interesting, because there's post traumatic growth, where people have a traumatic experience, and they maybe have a lot of emotion. That might be grief, there might be all this reaction. But there's also a sense of opening, I definitely experienced that a sense of Yeah. Greater love. Yes. And then there's PTSD where
something gets sort of hijacked, where we're looping in our brains, and we're stuck on this fear. Right. And I know in a lot of spiritual traditions that kind of go between love and fear as a definition, but just interesting, because you asked me that question, and I think where did we get stuck on that? And there is this very deep biological imperative to stay alive. I mean, as far as I understand the body. But when you look at well, who went to the post traumatic growth and who's stuck in the PTSD, one way I would differentiate that is there's there's a fear of that death happening. There's a fear Have that threat of harm to that's very real, that's still alive that's kind of circulating and amplifying in the body even. And then there's, you know, the other side of it where people experience immeasurable loss, I have a dear friend who lost her daughter, you know, no one ever wants to feel, obviously, my parents lost their son to you know, like, we lose these dear people all the time. And it's heart wrenching. But you can see how some people in their grief have such an opening? Yes, that's way I can describe it. Do you have a sense of like, how, or why someone might go one way or the other?
15:38
For sure. So what I gather right now, and this is, and I work with people, and you know, last night, Sunday night, when I was, you know, almost 10 o'clock, somebody posted something in our Facebook group, and my team was like, You need to jump in there and answer it. This is not uncommon that this is a crisis almost all of the time right now. And so what I'm finding is that, we've removed it from even our awareness. And so when it shows up, and so I've been an oncology nurse, and I've been up, which is a cancer nurse, and I've been a hospice nurse. And so I've worked and seen at the bedside, where somebody comes in with cancer at 97 with it all over and they're going to, and the doctor says, you know, this is where we are, and the families like, fix it, do something. I know. And I've and I've had calls from doctors say you need to help us, the families are making us intubate people and keep them alive. And we know it's not like it's, it's crazy out there. So I think one of the first things we want to do is bring back the truth about death, not what you saw on a show or not what you may have heard, and also people have had scary relationships with as a child, like maybe being shielded from their grandmother or letting somebody know that, you know, they like I get this all the time that I never got to see my dad again, they didn't even tell me he was sick, or they told me grandmother is sleeping or went on a vacation like this sets us up with trauma with trauma. And I think people are always trying to do the right thing. I always think that everyone is doing the best they can with what they've got nor but when you tell it, the biggest thing we could do that is a justice for children is bringing them back into the awareness age appropriately, that death is a natural cycle of life, and not to be fearful of it. Because it happens with animals. It happens with all of us. And so right now I'm dealing with a whole generation that was shielded and protected and removed death. And it doesn't, it doesn't work that way. So I feel like that's one of the things how we can heal this. And I find this from what I teach is that if we let somebody come in safely into this loving space, to learn it before we're faced with it, because that's key, and we can really share the stories and what that's like, all of a sudden, oh, I can take a breath into this. And not only that, but there's so much like I said inspiring information that people have shared at the bedside that I've been able to witness and be a part of that will have you thinking this life is so much different than I ever thought in a beautiful way in a beautiful way.
18:10
Yeah. It just makes me think of all the really big feelings that come up with death of love to write i People say I can't go visit because I don't want to feel the the I don't want to say
goodbye I don't want to let go but there's there's love and grief that just go hand in hand. Right? So it just makes me think that this is also about how we deal with emotion, right? Like how many people still Oh, don't cry. Oh, clean it up. I'm sorry. I'm crying. It's like, what about just letting the yes love and the tears and the everything move through us rather than trying to stifle it? It sounds like it would allow people to be in that space to be with each other to be with people as they're dying.
18:55
Yeah, there's absolutely no doubt that it is so hard to say goodbye to that physical beautiful person. But the thing is that I asked you this is it's 100% Guaranteed. You know, I've never heard one person who said oh, I out did it you know I was able to and I want to also share this is that the painful experiences that we talked about that that grief that heaviness those can be our greatest gifts for breaking open into loving again higher place of living because you've been through it because you thought because you've suffered so but then broke open hopefully to you know your heart being open because if you can feel your loved ones still there if you can know that the honor and this is where the three day home wake is something that is really, really beautiful for people. And I'll do a whole piece on this because it's so important. There's something about three days when somebody dies having us concretely see that person but also for me I feel like it's feeling that love that still there. So yes, I see that that person is not breathing. in that body, I feel, and I honor them. And we do ritual, that there's something that is so incredibly powerful and healing about that ritual. And for me, I've had so many people end of life, and I feel I feel them all over. So for families to feel that, and have that ability, I think brings them into again, a different space of, okay, they're not, I'm not gonna be able to grab them and hold them and hug them. But boy, can I love them.
20:25
Yes. And I think a lot of people I had this experience to have seeing, you know, a body, I saw my brother and going, he's not there, like, there's his body's not there. That's not him in the casket. Like, I love that. I'm saying goodbye to this container in a container. And I'm okay with that. I don't you're saying that. But, but then, you know, and I have had these sort of wild experiences of driving and turning, turning by this really beautiful flowering bush and feeling like, wow, my brother's right there.
20:58
Go. Go with that. Right. What? Yeah, I want to teach people that there is Okay, so let's, let's use the example of like a radio frequency, right. So there are radio waves that are happening all the time that we can't see in our eye, but they're there. When you get that kind of a feeling. Do not let your smaller mind, negate it. Own it, love it, open that heart because it's the truth. You know, and just like if I took a pen right now and dropped it gravity, so the so we don't teach these things that, again, are very much a part of this whole experience, and could really create a lot of healing and inspiration. But we just don't talk about that or finish it yet. It's there. It's science.
21:37
Yes, it feels like this secret society of people who've experienced loss who say, Oh, I had this dream, oh, I had this experience. Let me just tell you about this. And I will freely share any of these examples I'm giving today with people I know in love who are going through loss, but I don't typically bring them up with people who aren't experiencing that or haven't experienced that, because they're just not in a place where that is resonating with them more. Variance did or but but still it ends up this sort of secret society? Well, it's tucked into the deep conversations when someone else is going through it. And so what I love about what you're doing is you're bringing all of this, like, why do we wait and why do we wait until we're grieving? Or? Or somebody you know, in hospice, why don't we centralize these conversations, so that we live better, so that we feel more connected, and so that we're not living in, you know, this sort of half conscious attention or fear of pushing away something that's half true.
22:36
So let me share with you if I may when I was in hospice, and the hospice model, so the Hospice is a beautiful model of care. But as a hospice nurse, I was supposed to teach the loved ones how to care for their loved one at home at the end of life. I'm only there for an hour, once a week, people come on the service very late. And then as a nurse, I'm there for a very limited time. The people in the family are petrified. You can't teach people there. I'm running and putting band-aids on so for me, I was like, okay, if I'm supposed to teach people how to care for their loved one. What about I go, this isn't working, right? As much as I was riding around the town and doing extra hours, it still wasn't working. Okay. I said, why don't why don't I develop a training, from my experience, about from start to finish how to care for your loved one, in the three phases that I've identified end of life and offer it before you get there like that grandmother? handing it down to a grandchild? Yeah. And I went to my hospice team, and they said, This is great, but we can't do it. I said, why? I said, they said, because we won't get paid for it and the reimbursement model. So I said, Well, I'll go teach it at the library for free. And this was about 18 years ago. And you know, what happened? It filled up. Yep, not right. And then all of a sudden, people from other countries were like, yeah, it's not going well here. And I was like, let me put it online. And Lisa, today, every month, we do a training. It's 90 minutes in the training. And then I do a live q&a. We go about three to four hours with questions, people from all over the world between 2500 and sometimes 5000. People register for this training. People wait in the middle of the night, I said, I'll send you the replay. They want to be there live, how beautiful and we talk about the same experiences whether it's a dirt floor in Zimbabwe, or it's a mansion in Millbrook, we are all the same. And we've got to bring that pack. not different, not different the same. So the key was to teach people ahead of time, and then in the learn about life at the same moment.
24:30
Can you share those three phases? Yeah,
24:33
yeah, for sure. So when I was working with people, I would again, I think times never on our side at the end of life right now. And so when I go in, I'm trying to identify like, where are they
and meeting people where they are. So the first phase is the shock phase. And try and picture
and meeting people where they are. So the first phase is the shock phase. And try and picture this you get a terminal diagnosis. You maybe you've had a journey with illness, but your doctor says this is where you are and all of a sudden, like when you're told you don't have any more time or there's a finite amount of it. It's a shut down. So usually it's a shock for not only that patient, but for the family as well. Yeah. The second phase, if we're lucky enough to get one, and the more that we can get in there and help people with safety and love and acute issues, is the stabilization phase. And that, to me is where the magic happens. It's also what I call the work phase. What does that mean? What end of life work? Can somebody do? A lot. So this is where we actually this is our moment, this is our window of opportunity that we look because you know, we push things away, and we kind of try and try and forget things. And guess what we get, oh, we try that ball. We keep trying to, you know, push under the water, it doesn't work. And this is the opportunity for us to find peace within that give forgiveness. Make sense of things in our life. Now there's an organic, beautiful thing that supports this is because as that physical body is declining, there is yet heart center that's getting larger and larger. And all of a sudden people. Oh my gosh, now I want to share a quick story. I was training a certified doula giver. And she said she had a strange relationship with her father, she got a call from an aunt who said, your father's dying, they were in a different country. He wants to see you and she was like, ah, you know, I don't think I want to go. She said, Well, okay, I'm gonna go, she walked into the hospital room, she walked through the door, and he's like, I'm sorry, I forgive you. You forgive me, please forgive me. He's like, he was all about love. He was all about this forgiveness. He's like, I everything made sense. She goes, I was so glad I went. Yeah, but this is really critically important this space, because there's not one of us that does not have forgiveness to give or forgiveness to receive. And again, I want your listeners to please take this away today is that you can use forgiveness now. And it can change your life. And then the third phase is the transition phase. And, you know, very much similar to that birthing of the baby, it can be very quick, it can be painful, you know, there's a lot to it, and that we're saying goodbye to that person. So is more, the more prepared you are and can anticipate the needs, even knowing the natural way that the body systematically shuts down. It can change your whole experience by being there to support somebody end of life.
27:07
So it's the shock, the word
27:09
stabilization. Yeah. So the shock phase, the stabilization phase, and the transition, okay.
27:16
And in that stabilization is when there's an opportunity for real healing, and B connection and forgiveness and all of these things. I'm just curious, do you ever see people who don't go through it a spiritual opening, who seem to sort of close down more? Or does that ever happen?
27:33
Yeah. So one of the things that I want to share with people is that this is not about my agenda
Yeah. So one of the things that I want to share with people is that this is not about my agenda
as a doula giver, or it shouldn't be anyone's agenda. When we show up for somebody the end of life, it should be purely to be of the highest service with no judgment, and it's about their journey. So we have to honor however their journey is it's perfect. And is it always like the way that we would hope? No, but it's not about us? So yes, I have. So you know, we've seen people who have had heavy trauma, sometimes Viet, like, veterans have been some of my most challenging and of life's, you know, break. They're just so loving, and they've been through so very much. And what I would say to families in those moments when you're caring for somebody is that you're not always going to have a spiritual breakthrough. And that's okay. Yeah. But I also say this, it might not be Oh, he shared with you, because because we're going to talk a little bit later about visitations at the bedside, which are phenomenal. But they may not share it with you, but they also may not actually have one. And what you can do is look for those practical, acute issues that need to be rectified pain, just sitting and showering with love, you know, doing what you can practically. And it's about the person's journey and just honoring that. Yeah,
28:50
I think this is important, because I do know people personally, who have had spiritual experiences may be leading up to death, but then the final days are very fraught. So I think it's important to talk about that piece, too. And every experience is going to be unique, obviously. But if you're hearing, you know, there's all this grace and love and beauty that happens. Well, that can happen in a lot of different ways. And there's sometimes this very raw, challenging, you know, even struggle that people go through.
29:21
Yeah, so let's so let's talk about that. So the stabilization again, is that window that's really conducive for a lot of that spirituality and beautiful things. When we get to the body actually shutting down. There is going to be stuff that goes on. And so I want to give you tools in this training is to like, Okay, this is what's happening. This is what you can do for comfort. There's a part that I believe again, if we go back to a certain time in the journey, where people have one foot in this world and one foot of the next and they're sleeping a lot there is a restlessness, there can be a confusion, there can be a struggle, they're not quite ready and it can be like look like a lot, then it's At the end of life as the body shutting down, you know, there's going to be different breathing changes, there's going to be different things, and it can look uncomfortable, one of the things that can look uncomfortable is because we we've never seen it before, when we understand the physiology, when I share with people what is happening and why that's happening, and that the person's really not experiencing that, and then what we can do for comfort, it really brings about, okay, this is a natural process, the body knows what to do. You know, we've been dying for 1000s of years. And so for me, I thought, Where did we ever get to this point. And also, as a medical professional, sometimes when we step in and start tweaking, and turning and doing things, we can really kind of muck up the natural flow of an end of life. And this is not for anyone to decide, but me what I would want. But if we don't decide it goes into that default. And that can be a very different road. So I just want to want to make that clear.
30:56
30:56
So that's like, when we look at something, then we can think about players just sort of pushing it off and saying, Oh, well, that's not gonna happen to me, Well, you know, heads up, and it
31:07
heads up it is because it's 100. And it does not have to be a terrible thing. It also so for me, 80 to 90%, I've seen positive end of like 80 to 90%, no matter what the disease process has been with two things. Number one, doing your advanced care planning, doing your advance directive and thinking about where I want to be in what quality of life and when I would want to extend it. And when it's time that I just want to be kept comfortable. And number two, learning again, the basic skills of what it's like to care for somebody and to life. So then you have this idea. And the people have done those two things. 80 to 90%, because it was more like, Okay, I know, one day this is gonna come makes me live today with a very different set of appreciation and awareness. And then when it does come, okay, and I have my, my plan 80 To 90% better. And that's really what my platform and why so much free training is given. Because I just want we can't go back and do this again.
32:03
Yeah. And talk about it and think about it beforehand, I was just talking to my dear friend's husband about he lost his mother. And he's talked about how it just starts happening so fast. And all of a sudden, there's this hospice in this plan, and she's very medicated, and they're going wait, we don't know did was that the right decision, because it all just sort of snowballed in that direction over the course of a few days, and, you know, loved ones are trying to do their best. They're flying in places showing up trying to get more information, figure out what's happening. They're getting, you know, maybe even mixed messages from different health care professionals. And so to make those decisions as a support person, or obviously, you know, the person themselves can't make it in that moment, it without some sort of directive that that becomes this extra question, doubt, stressor.
32:49
It should never be left for your family decide one of the greatest gifts we can give our families is to do our advanced directive, not only do them but have a family meeting, I always say with a lasagna or brownies or whatever you want, and share with them why you're choosing what you're choosing. Because even if they don't agree, and I know it's so hard, like if I say I don't want to feeding to you, if I can't recognize you, if I can't talk to you. That's not how I want to be kept alive, because I love you so much. And that would be awful for me, even if they don't agree with that. They've heard me share that. Yes. So the most loving thing they could do is say No, and it's not the onus is not on them. They're not like well, I have to decide yes or no, no, she decided she was very clear. It makes it so much better. So you can't do this at the end. And it's not fair. And I just want to say a little thing about the hospice and the end of life in the medications. This is what I see happening a lot. People are coming on end of life services so late, because we're avoiding it, avoiding it, avoiding it, that I get people on doula giver services when they're there and they're actively dying phase. And I think hospice does a lot to so when they are finally called in. That person is so advanced in their process, that then there is required some medication just to help that, that cocoon leaving on the on the outside. And
people are sometimes like well hospice came in and the medication and then they, it's because a lot of the time is very late process. So the more empowered, we can be by sharing and learning ahead of time, the better we will be on all fronts.
34:19
Absolutely. It gives that comfort, right. I mean, one of the things I think of a lot in your work is There's comfort when we talk about hospice, we think of the comfort of the person who's dying, but there's also the comfort and support of the people who are flying across the country and just got a last minute notice and are trying to figure out what to do and I feel like your work helps both but especially starts this conversation around. How do I be a support person?
34:46
Right? Yeah, absolutely. I was just working with a family and it was a younger woman in her I want to say her early 50s Her best friend and her went down and I was guiding them through the tele doula which is wonderful. And then I get this Text and she says, you know, she's sleeping a lot, which lets me know that we're getting closer. She's calling for me. They're telling me that she's calling my name. Should I go? Hmm. And I said, You will never regret going, you will never regret the choice of going, she jumped on a plane, I go tell, tell them to tell her, he was basically sleeping aside that you're on your way. Because if she wants to hold on for you, she will. And she jumped on a plane. And she went down to Florida. And she walked through the room within a few hours. And she said it was the best decision that she ever made. And it was absolutely beautiful. So there's so much support and learning that we can give for caregivers, for the people accompanying this, that is, again, going to be the starting point or a big jumping off point for their grief and bereavement journey. Yeah, absolutely. We've got to get this right. Yeah, I feel
35:49
like you've probably gotten this question before, because I know people who have for whatever reason, whatever explanation not not gone, right. Maybe they have kept Yeah. And one of the reasons recently I've heard is COVID. I can't, I can't go. So I'm wondering how you support people who couldn't be there? Yeah. Who wanted to? Or maybe they were conflicted and COVID was the deciding factor. But I'm sure this question has come up for you. What do you what support do you offer? What What message would you send someone who couldn't be there?
36:22
Great. So two things here, people who just like let's leave COVID to the side for a minute. People who just can't go there for whatever reason, I just don't want to go. Please, no one judge them. And please don't judge yourself. Because that is absolutely fine. It really is. You just have to get to that that space. And then I want to I want to share the three reasons why people actually won't have their end of life. And this is going to lead into that as well. But there's no judgement if you don't feel like that's right for you don't force people in please families don't judge other people. What I will say is that would that person like to write a letter that can be
read to the person because maybe it's too much just to see the person. There's different ways that we can kind of create that loving space. But again, there's no judgement here. Let's talk about COVID. In 2020, I'm going to get emotional. So bear with me, I think it's just an emotional time in our world. And again, there's emotion is a very good thing. In 2020 20, I was in Denver at the Oprah tour and the world was shutting down and I was living in New York City at the moment. And you were hearing about COVID and it was literally shutting down. And I remember just two goals that I had get home and get my dog out of daycare. And I got home the night before my city shut down. I work in end of life doula givers and end of life provider we were so busy before COVID Once COVID Hit it was like you've never seen I've put so and families were calling medical professionals were calling and doulas were calling and saying how do we work with families? We can't go in there. So I was like, Okay, what are we going to do? So I put up a life Cafe three times a week for community to me, but we created tele doula, this huge platform where you can help families with being there without having to be there. We could tele doula, the coaching of the caregiver with technology. Because we're not going to risk the safety is one thing we can't risk. But also then how do you memorialize? How do you help families find closure when so many said, I dropped off my husband at the hospital? I never saw him again. Yes, so people feel and rightly so first of all, the whole world was turned upside down, but their personal life was turned upside down. So one of the things that we did with visuals and with the bedside is be able to set up a ways that you could have like the camera be live streaming. So you could have family members come in, say what they need to say we would have like somebody have as the point person, letting everyone know what was happening, you know, bringing in you know, opportunities because hearing selasa the census to go for people to be able to share and then doing memorials online. Now here's the thing that I want to say is, is so beautiful and absurd. At the same time. COVID made us all sit quietly at home and that's not a bad thing. But it also taught us that we could connect and connect really beautifully through technology. So I'm an in person person but the thing is that let's utilize this I am connecting with people all over the world. We had memorials going and services going on zoom that more people attended and I feel like this because they didn't have to travel because they they were in the comfort of their own home. There was so much love that was brought up there and so we really want to create new ways of ritual and of being able to do this now tele medicine has been found to be so effective in all fronts that it's it's here to stay for better for worse and that's okay. You can still have in person but it's it's a really beautiful thing because there was more of a need than ever to show up for people at the end of life, and yet we couldn't. So do we just say okay, because we can't go in there with that. We're just going to wait. Absolutely, we had to figure out a way to do that. We did it. We did it. So you have to get creative. And thank you technology for that, you know, other. Yeah,
40:17
I just did a zoom funeral yesterday, two days ago, for a family member that I wasn't super close to, and I probably wouldn't have traveled to be there. But it was in the same place where my grandparent's funeral had been and and then I heard stories about her. And, oh, now I want to know more. And, you know, to your point, I think that the death brings up, oh, why didn't I know this person better? And, like, there's all these other questions that come with that.
40:44
Yeah. And I think one of the things that I find really important is that, like, I will text literally, that person is actively dying, and I'll be able to text with the caregiver, like through the whole
thing without disrupting that sacred space. So because there's, you know, not everyone is at the same place, usually not in that. So they're like, Okay, this is what happened, okay, you know, did you try this, or this is probably what's happening, man share the three reasons why people do not have an end of life. All right, this is we're getting into the beautiful, fascinating part of end of life a little bit here, when somebody, typically end of life will work like this, when they're headed into their transition phase, there's usually these cues that will let us know that I think they're getting ready for transition. What we have found is that because symptom management is such a beautiful part of this, that we get the quality of their life so high, sometimes better than it has been in 30 years, it's sometimes people forget that their end of life because all of a sudden, forgiveness and their their symptoms are managed, and there's like so much love, we never want it to be completely forgotten. But I look for these, I look for two indicators that they're heading into their transition phase. And one is that they will not have the ability or desire to eat, which is a very intense one for family. So we really want to know what's happening. But what typically happens is they go into the transition phase, within a few hours, two days, they go into their deep sleep coma, from in the deep sleep coma ours today's body usually dies, typically. Now we've and I know there's a lot more for me to see, I have seen many different things, there's, there are three reasons why people will actually hang on. One is that they're waiting for someone to come. Okay, so now picture that they're in a sleep coma, not talking with their eyes close for days, waiting for someone to come. Number two, they're waiting for something to be resolved for a date of some sort, or for somebody to again, maybe give forgiveness which you can still give. So something is not complete yet. And number three, is they're waiting for you to actually leave the bedside. And this is so counterintuitive. That step away from they don't want that to be the last thing that you have seen, because they know how hard this is. So I have to say this, how do they know that use the five minutes that you stepped out of the room to get a cup of coffee? And that they decided to have their end of life? What is that saying in this much bigger picture? It was a gift to you, I'm being told that it's a gift to you. And it changes the whole perspective of all of this. So
43:07
yeah, I've heard a lot of people say, Oh, I rushed to get the or I went to step out to get a cup of coffee. And that's the moment and then they are in this place of shame or blame. Or they didn't listen to their intuition. Somehow they missed it. And, and then I'm always reminding like, there's another perspective here. Here's this person, who's also to some degree, I think, choosing their mom. And just like, I don't want someone watching us go to the bathroom. Maybe we don't want to I don't know, I don't know how I'll feel. But maybe people need privacy, or maybe it is too hard. It's too hard when someone's right there. And so to think about that perspective, and that, you know, to frame it as this choice, I think it takes the onus off that person who's thinking I was supposed to be there and I was supposed to be holding their hand and they have this vision in their mind. I was thinking when you're talking about my grandma who passed that almost 105, early COVID, April 2020. We called her I spoke through the phone to her, you know, she was kind of seemed like she was going in that direction. And ended up happening over the night after we talked to her and after all these things. But if so many friends I spoke with were like, Oh, she saw what was happening. Her birthday was like a month away. We always go out for her birthday. And she was like, You know what, I'm good. Like, I'm gonna go now because there's a pandemic. Yeah, changing. Yeah, later. And so even though she's not verbalizing those things, and I would have loved to have been there holding her hand. I don't know that she would have wanted that and definitely context of what was happening. It sort of made this larger sense. And I know we all kind of tell our stories and figure out each
experience on our own. But it was really interesting to fit in so many of the things you're saying of like, people sometimes just like it's it's their pace. It's not always what we want as loved ones.
44:56
Well yeah, and but there's so much more hear for me. So when so that's the truth. But then what is that saying? This person has been in an asleep coma, the five. And this happens all the time I see at the hospital all the time. So this is the other thing, one of those indicators that somebody is going into a transition phase is that they talk about being visited by loved ones who've already died. Yes. So I want you to hear this. And I really want to share this is that in my belief system is that we never die alone ever. There's so if you go back to the frequency, that the physical body and that this body, the spiritual body is that there's some that that some point that they are able to access, and they're able to see loved ones. Now I've literally had people that have had that experience where they're like, see you later, they're so ready to go then because they've now seen their mother, they've been in that loving, beautiful what they described, it's indescribable, but they're worried about you being here. So they don't want that to be ingrained in you that last moment because they know it's too hard. And so they orchestrate when they're going to go. But what is that saying about much bigger picture here. Really beautiful, really beautiful.
46:09
So where do we all go from here? Right? We've just had this massive experience of global loss. There's, you have all this wisdom and experience from really taking this thing that you know, and again, avoidance as a trauma, PTSD term, too. But we've avoided right we're not gonna happen. Yep. And now we've been like you said, it's not a bad thing to sit and be at home, either. We've been sitting and being at home and dealing with this more in our face, for most people at least and, and a very collective experience of, of just massive grief and loss. I mean, I heard someone saying recently, maybe it was Chris talking about that we people are lobbying for you know, even in the United States, like a department of bereavement, a department of death and dying, like we need to be addressing this. So with all of your wisdom and experience, where do you think we go from here? How do we bring this in.
47:03
So what I have found with the work that I've been doing, and that is so powerful is that death will teach us how much more similar we are than different. And when we bring that back into our space. And we listen to those at the end of life and understand the holistic beings in this journey that we are. And we go into that heart. And we start connecting with one another with that compassion with that grace. Because Lisa how much money you have, or how many degrees you have, when your end of life comes, doesn't matter. Don't care doesn't it's not going to help either don't care, and it's not going to help. So why not learn about how precious today is, and how you are part of me, because that is what they talk about this unconditional connected way that we're all part of one. And then I'm going to do everything I can to show up in presence and compassion, and kindness and make the world a better place. If we bring that teaching back in. We could change this world. And if we can understand the holistic beings that
we are, for me personally, I feel like this is the really hard part, this life journey, this soul growth is challenging. And it's super hard. And if we look at it in that way that we're here experiencing things so that we can break open like you began this beautiful podcast, with the heaviness of pain and suffering, breaking us open to a higher level of love and evolution of our own soul. If we can bring back the teaching of that and get together and follow that. Oh, the egos telling me to? Not like hold on. Look, let me check. Let me go into this heart here. Let me see the truth in that. Oh, no. Yeah, I love you. Let's, let's like meet in that moment. We can change this world, we could change this world. And I think it's happening. I think it's starting.
48:55
I makes me think of with clients. Many times I've used that let's use the deathbed test on this, like, Okay, how important is this person to you how circumstance and it does have a way of just reorienting it when we think of being on our own deathbed or we think of losing someone we love. All of a sudden, like, okay, I can forgive that. Okay, you know, that shifts a little bit. So this interconnectedness you're speaking of right? If we're embodying that, a moment to moment, we're less likely to get caught in some of this back the mental back and forth that we were talking about earlier.
49:30
Yeah. And today, I was walking my dog and I was thinking I mean, obviously we're going through such heavy times all the time. And I you know, I was saying if we could live each day, like one lifetime, like its own lifetime with what's important to us in this day, and then tomorrow, oh, it's a gift. I got another day like really have that awareness. But what's important to me today, finding joy, connecting being kind, you know, breaking it down, then when the day does come, I'll be in a much better place because we just don't know when that's going to be So I feel like I feel like the priorities that we've been told are important or not, and that we have to switch that thinking to fulfillment and connection rather than achievement and goal.
50:15
And there's this really beautiful balance in what you teach between planning and thinking ahead and be in the moment. Right. I love that about it. It's like, Yeah, think about it, look at it, don't hide it away. Do your advanced directives, have a family meeting? Have a lasagna over it, talk about it. Yeah. And then there's like, and use that to fuel how you express yourself how you feel what's going on in your day to day so there's this very present moment orientation with the word yes. Nor you're gonna bring in the truth.
50:47
So if I get with you, and we're saying, Okay, we're going to, we're going to acknowledge, we're going to say, okay, one day I'm going to accept one day, that end of life will be a part of my journey. Whether you are consciously thinking about it or not, you live your day with a very different lens, because you know, that wait one day, I'm not going to be able to so it you don't sweat the small stuff. It's just like, it's it's a wonderful gift in how we live. I just want to share
one story, if I may, about a woman who came into the oncology unit. She was 47 years old, and she came in on I was working Friday, Saturday and Sunday. She came in on a Friday, she had fractured her hip because she was on chemotherapy, which brittles your bones and she had gallbladder cancer. So she came in it was with her sister, and it was you know, they were very, very upset and scared. And you can understand. On Saturday at the end of my shift on Saturday, I turned I just did a turn and pivot from the commode back to bed with her. And she was out of breath. And that was a new finding. And just like we just sat there and I was like, oh, call her Mary Mary. I said do you want oxygen what No. And we just took this moment in it. But we knew it was not something was going on. The next day when I came in on Sunday, they told me that that night she was breathing heavy and they did tests and she had a pulmonary ambalaj. So blood clot in her lung. That's not a good thing. One of the first things she said is Suzanne's gonna be very mad about this. So she knew how much I loved her. And I did. But that night that Sunday night, the doctor came in that afternoon to do rounds, and I had a habit of walking into the rooms with them. When we walked into this girl's room. She said to the doctor, I just want to thank you for everything you've done for me. And I turned to the doctor and tears were going down her face. So Mary was telling the doctor that she was going to die. And it was before anyone called it and they said that night at about 11 o'clock, Mary woke up from a nap and say get my sister. I'm transitioning with all the excitement that you would have told an eight-year-old child you're going to Disney World. And they got the sister from the lounge she came in she goes I'm transitioning. And she went into a deep sleep and about one o'clock she went into a deep sleep and that night about 4am She died. But I have to ask you this. What did Mary see in that sleep? That made her so excited? So at peace? And yes, that is what we see in the end of life with so many. And if we could know that it could be like that. Would we ever be afraid of it?
53:09
Mm hmm. I used to read these spiritual books is a manuals book. I'm not sure if you're familiar on my shelf somewhere here. And one of the things that's resonated with me for so long as they said, death is like taking off a tight shoe.
53:24
I like that one.
53:26
I was like, Sign me up. I mean, you and I have probably don't wear heels anymore. But we've probably both stepped out in some heels after a long day of wearing them child. Yes,
53:35
you're right. I love that. And then I'm sorry, baby Jesus. But I haven't but I really do call this the school of life because I know that it's full of so much pain, and trauma and experiences. And I feel like that's all what it's supposed to be. In order for us to it's I'm not saying it's easy at all. But I'm also saying that and I want people to know this, that when we look at each other and
when we pass each other never assume that you know somebody journey meet each other with as much presence and grace that you could ever because we just don't know that person I'm sure that everyone has had a very very everyone has had parts of suffering that you just don't know about. So let's just again give that grace to each other because it's what's needed and it's what's changing. So if I look at my life like these, the school of life and it's these opportunities are helping me get to a different place. I kind of take the anger out of some of those experiences and look at it like in a different way just like my my beautiful patients at the end of life with their spiritual eyes say I understand why that happened. Now I'm not angry. I have that closure and it was a gift to get me to a higher place. What a different perspective but let's take off the shoe I like that. But but we have to do our work here. That's why we're here.
55:05
Right. And let's go to Disneyland. I mean, that story you just told is even beyond, I mean, beyond taking off a shoe that's like, there's some serious excitement this person was sharing.
55:16
So we don't want to rush it. But we also don't want to fear it at all use it as as your greatest tool to live fully.
55:24
Yeah, it's such a people have been talking about unprecedented times and the unknown and living with uncertainty. And I feel like it's the ultimate unknown and uncertainty. And so what you know, what we've learned from the past few years of being with not knowing applies here, too. And what I love about your framework and your approach, and the spirituality you're sharing is, there's just so much comfort and ease, and it takes that it takes that edge off of, you know, what if it's really awful, like, what if it's really beautiful, and I just wrote down, I'm actually going to pull off this little sticky note. Somebody said, when I was another person who started a podcast, and as in this little group of people who are starting a podcast, what's the best possible outcome? Like, we get so caught up in the worst ones? And I think with uncertainty, we can go to anxiety and fear and try to plan for every last, you know, part of the ego mind. Yeah, like, let me plan 10,000 things. And then it's like the 10,001st thing that happens, right? Like we make all these plans. And then the thing that happens is something we didn't account for, and a lot of times we're planning to try to present prevent something negative. But what about is something good is gonna happen. And so I love that you're bringing in, let's talk about end of life. Let's talk about the people who are supporting people dying, let's talk about the death process. Let's bring that into our life. And then let's also leave room for what's the best possible outcome? What if, what if you're actually excited when you get to this transition? What if it's enriching for your life in your relationships, and you're bringing that from not just a what F but from your experience? Yeah.
57:10
And I love that. And I love that when I would travel to different countries and do the trainings, so many of the same stories were there of these just beautiful bedside epiphanies. Death used
so many of the same stories were there of these just beautiful bedside epiphanies. Death used
to be a sacred revered as a sacred rite of passage. Let's bring that back. Let's share that again. Because it really is I have literally had beautiful tears glistening of the love and the the awe of that room. And I just want to share a man who was at the end of life with one of our doulas he had his whole family around him, he was transitioning in his bed, he sat up at the very end. And he said, he looked around and he said, I never knew how many angels I had around me. And whether you believe that or not, and I will tell you 1000 million percent, I am so certain. So certain that there's so much beauty on the other side, and we can bring this beauty into our life here. But whether you believe that or not, what a gift to that family. Yes, seeing that person at peace. But I do hope that you expand your mind in your heart, and just Just let that sink in for a minute.
58:15
And just to think that there is love available to us, somewhere out there somehow, whatever. However, that fits into your belief system is right. It's such a shift, right? To just think what, you know, I'm afraid well, is that where's their love available to me right now? And often when we ask that question, we find it right, whether it's a diet or in nature, or in a person or in a thought that pops into our mind, right? There's it's there.
58:39
It's always there, that frequency is always there, it's for us to be able to set our dial in that radio that we are to tune into it to allow it to come in, but it's always available.
58:50
Suzanne, I love you so much. And I'm so glad to have you hear your book, is it. Can you share, you know what your what you're working on you're working title if you want? Well, thank you so much,
59:03
and I adore you as well. So you probably know by now this is my life's passion and my work. This is my purpose, why I'm here. And we've done so much free training with the level one that I wanted to now put it into a book form, put these stories and put what I've learned. And so it is called the good death. That is the working title. So let's hope that it is because again, it can be an amazing end of life experience if we have the tools and the kindness and education. And it's going to have so much about where we got to this place because I think it's very helpful to understand how the heck did we get here? If we know where we were, to where we are now it can help us to where we want to go. And for me, you know, death is the number one fear in the world right now. But I have to tell you honestly that with the patients that I've worked with, and I've worked with over 1000 at the bedside right now. I don't think it was the Fear of the death itself necessarily, but I think it was the fear that my time was up, and I did not live my purpose. I did not have the bravery. So I really want people to take that away. So it has just so many different facets. It has a whole chapter on forgiveness. It has a chapter, I shouldn't give the whole thing away. But that's it when it's all good. Oh, good. Let's do it. I'm dying to be green.
There's a chapter called Dying to be green about how our choices impact our world. And so for one of the things, and there's no judgment here, but what I found with my family is that if we don't even talk about this area, we don't know that we have choices. And one of them is, do you want to have a natural burial or a green burial? Or now there's this big water cremation. And they're really environmentally friendly. So for me in bombing, most people are under the impression that by law, you need to have embalming done and you don't and again, there's no right or wrong or judgment here. Right? When we share choices, it empowers us. Yes. And when I know that I can have an impact after I'm not here alive. On the planet, that might be something I want to look into. And home wakes and writing my eulogy in first person. I know that might sound odd, but I have to share with you that I will probably say things that I want people to know that maybe somebody else wouldn't think about. And I want to also share this, I have never felt more of a power of love than just like we talked about love being in a memorial service and having somebody read a eulogy in first person. Well, then I'm an end to my son, Nicholas, I want you to know that, like, I'm right, there it is. So yeah, so there's a hole. So death, I always say death is having a rebirth. And we're bringing it back on so many different facets. But I think one of the most important things that I want to bring back is how connected we are, and how similar we are. And let's get back to that kind of presence and compassion because nobody needs to be elected, a law or anything to be able to choose that. So I want the best for you, wherever you are in the world. And even if you're not doing things that we look at that are that are nice, I'm still gonna send you love. Because you must be extremely. I want to be careful with my words, extremely challenged on your path of suffering. Yeah. Because if I'm angry and have and I know it's been, it's challenging at times, that's going to create more of that kind of energy. I'm not going to spend a lot of time in it, but I'm going to send you love. I'm going to bless you and allow you to go and I'm going to focus on what I can contribute and put that positivity out here. But there's just so much that we can learn from this space.
1:02:47
Yeah, absolutely. And I can't wait to read your book, I hope you do an audio book too. I will, I will. Because I love your voice. And I just love to all of it to just go for a walk out in nature and just take it in. I mean, this is something that just through knowing you. I feel you know, with my own experiences with loss, I that's impacted my life in a big way. But it also makes me think about oh, wait, me too. What about my death? What about the people I love and let's bring that conversation in. So I so appreciate you bringing that up bringing that in speaking your truth and training people in all these beautiful ways.
1:03:24
Thank you. And I want to say one of the most fascinating things that surprised me within talking about this section is how much this has healed people. Yeah, you know, you're about healing. And when we talk about the truth in this space, and the beauty and just what it looks like, so many people have written in and said, You just helped me heal my parents passing from nine years ago, from 35 years ago, I want to thank you. We need to heal, we need to bring in our presence in our healing. So I think that the topic and the book have three things. It is again, empowerment about the tools. It is about healing, and it's about inspiration about our life.
1:04:03
1:04:03
Yeah, absolutely. And, and what I hear in that, too, is death as a teacher, right and letting your greatest
1:04:12
teacher let his teacher s flow, I would say, you know, and remember, I always try and say we're humans doing not humans being right now. And don't push flow and really allow your heart to be open and just set that kind of dial high in that frequency and see what comes in for you. And let's get back to that. Because when we can start to shift that you start to look through life with a different lens. And that lens is really beautiful.
1:04:41
Yeah. Thank you so much, Suzanne, for sharing your experience and wisdom and love with us. It's such an important topic and I think we'll only benefit from looking at it right talking about it inviting it in and we have this global opportunity to do so. And I know so many people who need these conversations right now who are digging for them who are looking for them going, who is talking about this, because I wasn't thinking about talking about it. And all of a sudden, I really need to think and talk about it. Yeah. And so I hope this just you know, exponentially gives us an opportunity to invite the experience of death and talk about it. Bring it in so that we can support each other and we can live life. Well.
1:05:26
I love that. Yeah. Thank you so much.
1:05:29
Yeah. So thanks for being on the show. Suzanne. Maybe we'll come back when you're up to thank you, Lisa. Thanks so much. Thanks so much for listening. My hope is that you walk away from these episodes feeling supported, and like you have a place to come to find the hope and inspiration you need to take your next small step forward. I do want to make sure it's clear that this podcast isn't offering any prescriptions. It's not advice or any kind of diagnosis. Your decisions are in your hands, and we encourage you to consult with any relevant healthcare professionals you may need to support you through your unique path of healing. For more information and resources, please visit my website how we can heal.com There you'll find tons of helpful resources in the full transcript of each show. You can also click the podcast menu to submit requests for upcoming topics and guests. Before we wrap I want to send thanks to our guests today, to Christine O'Donnell and Celine Baumgartner of Bright Sighted Podcasting, and to everyone who helps support this podcast directly and indirectly. Alex, thanks for taking the dogs out while I record. I'd also like to give a shout-out to my brother Matt. He passed away in 2002. He wrote this music and recorded it and it makes my heart so happy to share it with you now
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