Today on the How We Can Heal Podcast, Lisa Danylchuk speaks with Carrie Owerko, founder of The Playground. Tune in to hear the pair discuss all things PLAY, their love of dance, and how movement can heal.
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About Carrie Owerko:
Carrie Owerko is renowned yoga and movement teacher with a vast international following. She has travelled throughout Europe, Asia, Australia, and North and South America to share her unique interdisciplinary approach, which weaves movement and exercise science principals into her decades-long study of yoga. She has taught at Kripalu, Triyoga London, Omega Institute, Iyengar Institutes internationally, and many other venues. Carrie created a series of best-selling online courses for Yoga Journal, and has been featured in Yoga International, Prevention Magazine, The New York Times, and other publications.
Recently, Carrie founded The Playground, a virtual studio and library where she imparts her intelligent, playful and evolving approach to yoga and movement with students globally.
Carrie has been a mover, dancer, and athlete throughout her life. Early on, this love of all forms of movement led her to the study of performance. After earning a BFA in Dance and Theater from Loretto Heights College, she attended and graduated from the renowned Neighborhood Playhouse Theater School in NYC. She then spent several years working for a movement/educational/experimental theater company called The Irondale Ensemble Project. After Irondale, she continued her movement inquiries and became a Movement Analyst (CMA), having completed her studies at The Laban Institute in NYC. Her passion for continuous movement exploration also took her into a decades-long, in-depth study of yoga. She eventually earned a Senior Level Iyengar teaching credential. Additionally, she is a certified Yoga Therapist (C-IAYT), Functional Range Conditioning Mobility Specialist, among other certifications.
Outline of the episode:
- [03:54] What play is to Carrie?
- [17:33] Sparking learning and creativity through play
- [27:07] Safe movement of the body
- [38:18] Solving body boredom and self-exploration
- [46:08] The privileged and importance of safety
- [56:26] Creating space to heal with PLAY
Resources:
Website: https://www.carrieowerko.com/
The Playground: https://www.carrieowerko.com/on-demand
About Lisa:
Lisa Danylchuk LMFT, E-RYT, IAYT (she/her/hers)
President, The International Society for the Study of Trauma and Dissociation
Founder, The Center for Yoga and Trauma Recovery
Author: Yoga for Trauma Recovery, Theory, Philosophy and Practice
Facebook: Lisa Danylchuk, MFT, E-RYT
Twitter: lisadanylchuk
LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/lisadanylchukmft
Instagram: http://instagram.com/howwecanheal
Full Transcript:
Carrie Owerko 0:04
Focus, focus is a condition for play. It's an important condition. Again, there's there's, there's a focus. You're absolutely 100% paying attention. In fact, I think play can help us pay attention to what is important, which isn't how well we do and someone else's opinion of us so these things. It's, it's like whatever that point of concentration is. Like whatever the focus in the locus of attention. Where you're where are we directing it? Is it constantly on ourselves, or what we're attempting to do when the environment? Or how we're impacting the environment or relating to the environment or another person.
Lisa Danylchuk 0:53
Welcome back to Season Two of the How We Can Heal podcast. I so enjoyed sharing season one with you. And we have some incredible guests coming on for season two. I created this podcast because the hard time seem to just keep on coming these days. These guests and I have committed our lives to healing work, and to fostering health and joy in the world, even as we work through the impacts of trauma and face deep challenges. So let's dive in. And let's all keep talking about how we can heal.
Lisa Danylchuk 1:26
Carrie a worker has been teaching yoga and movement and exploring the relationship between body breath and mind with a sustained passion and an unwavering curiosity for several decades now. She has shared this exploration and workshops throughout the world, from Asia to South America, Europe and the Middle East. This led her to create the playground, a virtual global community of movement optimists where we can all practice play and learn together, celebrating the joy of movement and ongoing learning. I happen to be a member of the playground. Carrie is a movement optimist. And as you'll hear today, she believes in the joy of movement and the power of playful practice. Carrie and I initially connected while taking a Iyengar yoga classes with Patricia Walden in Cambridge, Massachusetts. I was inspired by her openness and curiosity. And once we got into deeper conversations about yoga, learning, growth and healing, it was very hard to stop us. It's been almost two decades since those conversations started. And they will keep going. I'm so glad you can join us for this one. Let's welcome Carrie Owerko on to the show. Carrie Owerko
Carrie Owerko 2:41
Hello
Lisa Danylchuk 2:43
I'm so happy to have you here on the How We Can Heal podcast.
Carrie Owerko 2:47
Yeah, I'm super happy to be here. And I always I always love talking to you. So we'll see what happens. Well,
Lisa Danylchuk 2:56
I know we're gonna talk about yoga. And I know we're gonna talk about play, and we might talk about kittens.
Carrie Owerko 3:00
The Master of play.
Lisa Danylchuk 3:04
So there's lots of options in there. But we met um, I was trying to figure out the first time we met, I'm pretty sure it was just in Patricia Waldon's class. I just remember you asking, being really curious and asking a lot of questions. And me being like, yes. I love this. I love her questions. I love her curiosity, can we can we always bring this like, open curiosity to everything that we do. So even though that, you know, people wouldn't necessarily define that as play. I think there was like a very playful, open presence that I always felt with you. And then I think we really connected more at one of the retreats in in Louisiana, right where we were, yeah, by the river, and started talking a little bit more about yoga and trauma. And everything just has happened from there. I just love having you in my world. I think you're amazing.
Carrie Owerko 3:54
Thank you. So yeah, it's been several years. And you were in Boston going to grad school. Right? Time. Yeah. Yeah. I think it's funny because play, you know, the, I think it is a kind of way to approach life now. I explore it in my work more from a movement perspective. That's my emphasis. That's my focus. But it transfers to pretty much everything I do. And and when I'm stuck or feel and I'm not always able to use it in the way that I would like, but I feel like it really is this friend that can kind of lower the stakes enough for myself that allows me to take action when I'm scared or when I'm in Um, you know, not confident or indecisive. You know, it just sort of, it's a, it's a big permission giver for me. Which is why when I first made my website, I had this sort of like, you know, subheading or whatever permission to play because it felt like, especially at that time, because I was so enmeshed in the Anyang garland that, um, that a it was, I needed to keep giving myself permission. Yeah, and, and then I wanted to facilitate that process. And others, even though people can give themselves permission, nobody's there granting it like I'm not there to grant it, but to be someone who supports that, you know, mission of utilizing a playful spirit. And especially in that practice, which often lacked it lat was a little bit well, serious, I guess, is one way to put it.
Lisa Danylchuk 6:09
Right, and there's value in being focused, and there's value in honing in on details and becoming aware of them that when you weren't even aware of them before. But there's something about I mean, I think you and I both think in terms of not so much all or nothing but like if and when and how and, you know, looking at context a lot, and I think there's there's value in that focus, there's value in in seriousness at times, but when we do, it's like, if we only eat carrots, like if you only do one thing, that's good, you know, people might say, oh, Carrots are high in sugar or whatever. It kale or one thing that's good for you, then like your vitamin K levels, go off the charts, and you need to stop, you know, so it's like, similarly, with a practice, if we're serious and detailed and focused all the time. I know for me, and it definitely depends on the teacher too. But it can start to feel constrictive. Start to feel like there isn't permission because you've got to get it right. And it's got to be refined. And it's, it can't just be this. This is one of the things I love with your teaching this, like, just jump, you know, twirl, like do something that your body goes, Oh, I know that I know that thing, maybe from when I was a kid, or from whatever. And yeah, I'll just twirl, I'll just, I'll just watch them. But I'll just skip, right, these things that are sort of in there that we can access. And we don't have to say to skip, I'm going to press down to the ball of my foot, I'm going to press and lift my back foot up, like it's almost impossible to skip if you're skipping that way.
Carrie Owerko 7:43
Yeah, totally. And I think that focus, you know, it's interesting, because that's this challenge that I come up with, when people will ask me like, like, they might, you know, if they, they see that I have this site called the playground, this platform, and then this is something that I'm that I consider to be like a Dao, if you will, right way to approach almost anything, and everything all learning, right. So but it doesn't mean that focus focus is a condition for play. It's an important condition. Again, there's, there's, there's a focus, you're absolutely 100% paying attention. In fact, I think play can help us pay attention to what is important, which isn't how well we do and someone else's opinion of us and these things. It's, it's like whatever that point of concentration is, like, whatever the the focus in the locus of attention, where, you know, where are we directing it? Is it constantly on ourselves, or what we're attempting to do in the environment, or how we're impacting the environment or relating to the environment or another person. And it doesn't mean that we can't also pay attention to our own body, of course, we do in yoga movement of time. But um, so yeah, so the the focus is extremely important. It is a condition a necessary condition for if we want to call something called a play state, which is something that Stuart Brown, Dr. Stuart Brown, who wrote that great book, play and how it changes the brain. It's a great book, Dr. Stuart Brown. And also Yat Pen Sap has written the same thing about focus being an important element because it's it there it does, there is some adrenaline present in the system. We are paying attention. There's enough up regulation that there's you know, we're motivated to do something, but not so Much like that that's play is this, that's the thing, it just isn't too high. And we're not in such a stressful state, that it starts to, it doesn't mean necessarily that it's going to interfere with the learning though it might, but it does interfere with our capacity, that excessive amount of adrenaline would it would potentially interfere with our capacity to try things. Because if we're really stressed out, we're not going to risk take, we're going to be less likely to explore different behaviors. Because if we have, there's a context in which to say, you know, what, if I do it like this, or what if I do it like that, you know, that you have the space and the permission and the conditions that allows it to not have to be right, you know, and that is the thing that it's like, focused, but it's not, it's not life or death. Because when it's life or death, it's not play anymore. It's not a game. It's like, we all know, those situations where, you know, the, the game got too serious. We've all had that experience, I think, is children, certainly, and that's a big learning thing. But also, like, we see that sporting events, you know, you see it in like the Academy Awards, you know, what I mean? Like, seriously, like, like, something was playful, to one person, maybe not to someone else, right, or it crossed a line or, you know, so that because in play, we're exploring boundaries, we're exploring ourselves in relationship to others. And we're understanding like, that there is this, we are not like, it's not just about us, right? We're, we're constantly influenced by the environment. And and we're never not in context. So it just is this great way to explore different behaviors, you know, and I think that that is, is why it's such a great tool for learning, and it helps us do the things that we may never have done before. It's a way of, of exploring novelty, which is so good for our brain, it's so good for our body, novel movement, novel experiences, because we're, we are supporting our nervous system and being able to go into the unknown, in a way where we're, say the expectations are buffered a bit, do you know, like, it doesn't have to be the perfect thing. It's a thing. And I think that yoga, you know, so much of the yoga philosophy was sort of, in a way, kind of lean into that. But the idea of, you know, whether it's not attachment, or not caring too much, or however you want to say it, but I think that it ends up for me anyway, in my experience in a lot of yoga communities is that, that, that there's this deep attachment or non attachment, that ends up being almost cutting off our emotional selves, like our imagination, our creativity, that thing that makes us human, like, you know, so I think play is a portal into all learning, especially for children. It's clear, but but also as adults throughout our lifetime, and also creativity and adaptability. I mean, it just, I, you know, I, I come back to these ideas over and over again, because it seems like something trivial to many people. And I think it's something profound.
Lisa Danylchuk 14:01
I think it's absolutely profound. And even just with everything you said there and this what I love about talking with you is my brain is popping off and like a million different associations and directions, because, first of all, yeah, there's the, you know, I think you're referring to like, biasa, via raga. And those kinds of things. And as they show up, right, like, really being intentional about something, but also letting go, which shows up in a lot of philosophy, right? Like, you've got to focus on it, you got to be clear, but if you're super gripping, right, which almost reminds me of the physicality of that, like always serious. If you're super grippy around it, there's no room for it to breathe. And so in order to be creative, and I'm thinking of musicians and artists of all kinds how there has to be this, this part in the beginning in particular, where it's all free game, like it's you can throw anything at the board and see what sticks and just let it flow through. And if we don't let it flow through, and if we're trying to edit and perfect and this goes with writing, I think To when we're trying to edit and perfect. Yeah, you know, while we're writing, like you'll never get a sentence out or a paragraph like how are you ever going to write an essay or a book if you're, if you're always in that sort of more detailed refined editing, and in some cases, like in writing, I think critical mind and so it's, you know, there's that in between of being intentional, but having space but there's also I think, that important moment of just anything goes right now. Whatever you want, let it flow through, let your body move. And, and it's so interesting, because you also were talking about, it's not life or death in those situations, right? Just make a song, nobody's gonna hear it play something on the piano, maybe it sounds good. Maybe it doesn't, maybe you'll find something you like. But it's not happening while you're on stage, right? It's happening. While you're brainstorming for the album, or whatever you're doing, you're you're back there just riffing or you know, writing something down auto recording it audio recording it while you're driving. Right? You're just letting it flow through. Because when it does get to a point, I think a when there's evaluation, and that's a big thing that stands out when you're talking and we're thinking about yoga and iyengar yoga, when there's someone's else, someone else's eyes, and there's intense focus on you, not from yourself and from other people. And there's that extra gaze, there's a sense of evaluation that spikes up our adrenaline are and can spike up our stress. It can also maybe be motivating, but it brings energy, right. And then there's that life or death where I think it starts to go into the realm of trauma, right? Where it's like, well, if if are really super well adapted, old, older structures of like, this is how we deal with life and death kick in. Yeah, there's no room for permission to play at that point, right? Because you're just running or you're just fighting, or you're just freezing, you're just doing something that your body's learned. This is what we do when it gets to this point. So I'm kind of listening and hearing like, there's this window in here where we can a just let things flow through and see how they feel. And be find a little room where yeah, we're intentional, but we're also open, right, we're not so zoned in that it gets dry or tense, or, I don't know, things along those lines.
Carrie Owerko 17:33
Well, I think for there to be any new learning, like, you know, a surprise, like the things in life, the aha moments or new, really, truly new thought, or, you know, a new like, like, like, you're actually learning something new, you know, that is going to come from these spaces or states of mind or being where we are. In that place of actually allowing ourselves to interact with the thing, that it hasn't been rehearsed, you know, you can rehearse senators and rehearse. And if you do what you exactly what you planned, you know, it's always going to be different, because of the conditions that are present. But I think when we're when we play, when we allow play to be a part of our daily lives enough, like we like any practice, you know, enough so that in those moments that are stressful, or those times when we are feeling you know, that we're either going to go back to behaviors fall back on those behaviors that we've done over and over and over again, right? And we know what happens, but we're going to fall back on it, because it's the thing that we know, versus maybe, maybe, you know, playing a bit in that moment, do you know that I I feel that there's something about it the like any daily practice, if you're entertaining contingencies, if you're exploring what ifs if you're saying yes to yourself, not maybe every single moment, every idea, but you're saying yes to yourself enough that occasionally you get some surprises, some genuine things that you didn't expect were going to happen and that it's sort of some idea that you had about yourself crumbles before you because you took a step and you did something that you're like, I didn't think I could do that. Or you know, and then you realize that was me stopping me that was some idea that I had about what I was capable of. That wasn't that wasn't true, you know that it was like, Look, I could actually do that thing. And, and to be able to exercise and entertain those behaviors, especially, I think when we're, you know, when we're by ourselves practicing, but maybe in you know, in situations with other people, um, I think it's just like any, like a muscle in a way, you know, it just, it gets a little bit easier to because you survive it, you're like, not only did I survive it, but actually, you know, sometimes some really cool things happen not all the time, but enough, so that we're motivated to try it again. And I, I feel it all the time, like in my own life, because I, you know, we talk about play, and I see it all the time when I'm taking dance classes to take different types of dance classes, because I love moving in different ways. And it's a real laboratory for me to look at the things that I'm studying about with regards to motor learning, and also play and it's, it's just this great environment to just be an observer, but also like, I'm participating in participant observer, right? So, you know, you can see in those classes where the teacher is correcting a lot, and you just see people shut down, you see, you see it, it's just like, we don't as teachers need to do that I just the motor learning research does not support it, that people can self organize that we tend to not allow for mistakes, and these mistakes are not harmful. That's how we learn. And if we don't allow a space for people to try behaviors for behavior, maybe they know what they're supposed to do, but they're doing the staff or whatever it is, and they need to be able to do it, make the mistake, see themselves, make the mistake, try it again, and then maybe get a glimmer of it sort of happening. And not have somebody come in and say, well, what if you do this, we're like, even though that may be great and helpful, there's just there's a learning of a play, if you will, there's that that ideally happens within that organism, you know, the, the person, the dancer, the yogi, the, you know, CrossFit or whatever, that they actually get to make the discovery themselves, and then they have really learned something that is a very different type of learning. And, and it is the type of learning that can transfer to other contexts alerts, you can repeat that behavior, then, you know, obviously, there's going to be conditioned by the environment and the context you're in. But it's a skill that you're able, you're going to be able to replicate, if you will, it will talk about skill based learning in, in other contexts, because your your whole organism was involved in a process of self organizing in the present moment without some person telling you exactly what to do exactly how to do it, correcting you ever set every second. And I just, it's so interesting to be in those classes, and to have teachers that, that that give you permission, I just can't tell you the difference. I see it, I feel to myself, but I also see it and other students and Tommy goes to a lot of these classes with me, and we talk about it as well. And you know that the teacher has the best intentions. There are different types of learners. Some people learn differently. They Yeah, that's absolutely true. But it's fascinating to watch, especially tradition, you know, tradition has a way that things are taught. And then there's what we're learning, which is of course, you know, things change, but like so there's like there's this research that supports a certain way of doing something. And then you have a long tradition of maybe it's dance. Could be gymnastics. Could be yoga. It could be strength and conditioning, right? Like, like this has been going on in the research of losses, you know, it doesn't have to be done like that. In fact, there was never any evidence that that idea wasn't actually based on any evidence, but everybody's doing and it's beliefs that get challenged. And that is what play is really dealing with, I think, is beliefs. I think play is a great way to have us, you know, challenge our beliefs to understand how powerful beliefs are, you know, then and it's it's a great way to continue to invite surprise into your life.
Lisa Danylchuk 24:59
I'm thinking is yours. Talking of like, how many different ways different sectors of the fitness world will teach you to squat? Like what's, ya know? How, where are your feet? How far apart? Are they parallel or turned in? And like, heaven forbid, you ever, like put one foot forward and do something different other than this, like very precise alignment? And then how, you know, how far down do you go? And what, which way? Are you pressing? And what are you activating? What are you thinking and all this stuff, and, and there's a whole, there's all these different ways, because we can squat a lot of different ways, right? And then there's the whole in yoga, the long standing knee over your ankle, knee over your ankle, knee over your ankle, and then you realize, every time I go down the stair, my knee goes forward of my ankle, right? So like, or of my toes, right? It's going, it's going further forward, even. And so those are the kinds of things that I'm thinking of that teachers as teachers, we learn them as a principal from someone. And there's good intention there, right? And there's sometimes also some fear there of like, you're gonna hurt somebody if their knee goes forward, right? And then teachers feel, I think, this responsibility to do that thing to correct to go around and say, no, no, no, when we're doing this dance move, you need to do it this way, put your leg backward and they and then if you watch a class like that, and I love just that perspective, you have being in the class and seeing how the teacher is interacting and how it's impacting the whole somatic experience and embodied emotion and energy of the person. And so someone's very playful and permissive, and people come to life. And then someone's very, you know, detail oriented, almost like dictator he I've seen in the dance world sometimes, too. And then the people like, small and contracted and scared. And obviously, I'm generalizing, and different things work for different people for different reasons. But I've also seen people who have histories of abuse feel very comfortable. In teacher student dynamics, they feel abusive, right?
Carrie Owerko 27:04
Oh, yeah. Yeah.
Lisa Danylchuk 27:07
Right. And so it's like, oh, well, this is what works for me, this is how I learned it's like, is it? Or is it how you were raised in what's familiar to you, that still actually not healthy or helpful for you? And that's a huge, hard question that like, you know, any person we got to live through to figure out that answer. But that that's something I see, at least in the world around me starting to sort of crumble away of the teacher always knows what what's right. And the teacher is telling you, this is what's risky. And this is what's good. And this is what's bad. And it happens in trauma informed yoga, too. Oh, you can never do this. Always do that. Never do that. And then there's this tension and there's this fear. And there's this like, not what you know, not the feelings were necessarily trying to create the freedom, the flow the the joyful embodiment, it kind of strangles it.
Carrie Owerko 27:55
Yeah, I think that it really gets to the heart of, of, like, really big ideas, you know, do we think do we see our body as fragile? We see our body as fragile? Do we see our brain and body? You know, consider this whole organism? Do we see ourselves as fragile? Do we see ourselves as capable of adapting and changing our do we see ourself as resilient? Or not? Do we do we? Do we feel that we can? Like, is it about putting ourselves in certain positions a certain way, which, when you really look at that idea, like this is made up? You know what I mean? Like, think about it, like even just, I mean, it's, watch people move, watch people move. Children move out, adults move, people in different cultures move, like when we really start watching people move, you're seeing knees going in interesting directions, ankles, spines, you watch dancers, it's like crazier athletes, their bodies are all in place. You know, they're like landing from a job with knee valgus. And you're like, but I thought that was going to totally blow your knee, you know? And like, how is it that that person's okay? Like they're okay, because they're organism built up a tolerance, their tissues, their nervous system to be able to handle those loads. So, so that's not to say that we're never going to uncertainly. There's aesthetic. Aesthetics are a big part of dance. But I would venture to say that aesthetics are a big part of, I'll even say like a lot of what you're going to see in a gym, and certainly in yoga, like, like, totally in yoga. This idea that you're going to do a backbend and your legs have to be parallel. Roll the thighs in, when in fact if we look Get the ligamentous structure of the hip sockets, that's actually putting your hips when you're in hip extension into like a closed pack position was putting a lot of tension on those ligaments, which means there's not going to be as much movement there, which is going to mean there's going to have to be more movement, say, in the lumbar spine or another part of the body. And so people are naturally turning their feet out widening their legs, and we're thinking that's bad, it's actually creating more of an open pack position in their hip joint, which is allowing for more hip extension, so that they're getting a different distribution of force across the whole structure. Yeah, so it really depends on you, who you are and your intention and your body, why you're doing something, but the idea that that external rotation is going to compress the SI joints just isn't supportive, you know. So it's like, these are ideas, and then people feel that because if you tell them, if you do this, you will feel this when we know, like, like, I've read or heard, I can't remember I read it, or I heard it, something really interesting about no SIBO and placebo. And just, you know, like, as you probably know, from your work, how incredibly powerful these are like, and, you know, like, it is great to see. So it's not that we can ever say things, you know, but I feel like maybe what we could say is just less, if we're, if we're in, in specially in terms of taking people potentially down a road of avoiding things. Because if you avoid things, you're you are never going to build the capacity to do that thing. In fact, in a weird sort of way, if you avoid squatting with your knees, your toes turned in, and your knees and valgus sometimes and your legs internally rotated, then in those situations in life, where that's the way you're going to be positioned, you know what I mean? Or, or you're going to be doing something and your leg goes that way, you haven't been exposing either your tissues or your nervous system to these configurations. So a lot of the interesting conditioning work that happens in say dance, for instance, because there's so many different the body like choreographers will have people do like almost anything, right? So is to, is to expose the body to many different movements. Progressively, you're not like suddenly doing something with speed or velocity or increased force you do you learn the position, then you load it, and gradually you'll try speed, you know, there's like, there's a way of, of progressing, that, that exposure and progressing those loads so that there's that we're building capacity, and we're not overwhelming the nervous system that are that we actually learned to trust ourselves more. And, and that's also important, because when you're moving, we just look at it from a movement context. But I think we could look at it in a lot of different ways, that when you're apprehensive about it, you interfere with the way your body's going to organize itself. Do you know if you're apprehensive about doing something like you're gonna go do that jump and you start to overthink it, you know, then it's, it's very different. I mean, I remember being in one of my dance classes, my teacher was like, I think I mentioned that one of the playground classes because I've been doing a parent class ever since like, it is class, which is just this, like, these short essays. And then we do like, a pot of array, and then we do this x jump, but but you can go out like lift your legs up and touch your toes, just like a lateral jete, and your legs are out to the side traveling in the frontal plane, but your legs go out to the side of you. And I remember being one class was like, just go for it. Like because the guy who was like that particular day, there were only two of us in class. And and this young guy is like in his 20s he's like, you know, like a Broadway dancer or something. And then there's me. It was and he was like, I mean, he danced us. So like, and this kid, you know, it's like, I'm trying all the stuff, you know, and I'm like, he's like, why don't you try it? I'm like, I've never I've never done that. Like, I don't have any idea how to do it. And then he's like, so you're gonna deadlift pay the first leg and then just try to keep illustrating. And then like, I tried it and it was like okay, you know, I mean it was and then we kept doing it over and over and then he's like, attack it. You know what I'm like, attack you know, like, but then I realized like it was made in order to do that job. It meant there had to be like confidence in my body doing it. And I remember like the the time that it really like it was like, boom, you know what I'm Oh, totally like, I'm like, I'm like, at that point, I was 59. Now I'm 60. I was like, 59, I've done this for the first time in my life, and I've done it in every single class ever since, like, when it's his class, I've always, like, I just go for it every time. And it's better on one side than the other. And, you know, it's just like, but it's so fun. And that's happened so many times where there's other things where I'm like, I have no idea how to do that thing, like, and I have no desire to do it. So I'm gonna stick with this person, you know, there's totally those times where I'm just like, Yeah, but I'm gonna pass, you know, because like, that I can, I can pass on that. But, but it's so interesting to look at, when you you know, it's like learning about yourself. And, and, and it doesn't mean there aren't going to be times when we, when we try something, and it doesn't go well, and maybe we fall down or whatever. But this is the thing, if we fall down, sometimes we get hurt. And like, you know, sometimes shit happens, but we actually recover. Do you know that that's the interesting thing. And I think as teachers like this idea to keep our students safe, I think I understand that. But I think that the, and we've had this conversation many, many times, if we have one of our primary, at least for me, as a teacher, I want to encourage agency in the people that I teach, I feel like they, the more empowered they feel, to make choices to do or not do, do, you know, like, like, I support you in doing and I support you and not doing but it's their choice, and I'm here to help you exercise different choices, you know, give you space to explore contingencies, you know, like, provide a context where it's low stakes enough for you to try things, oh, let's make it ugly together, or whatever, you know, what I mean, those things that we get games to structure, explorations in different behaviors and different ways of doing things. So that because it's really interesting to just say, I'm going to try something different. And, and try something different. It is, you know, and sometimes, like, you know, it's helpful to be like, make it ugly, make it this make it that just because like that is that sort of gives a focus for the game. So that we don't have to be like you said, self evaluating ourselves editing ourselves, we're just trying stuff. And that is, so in the process of doing that, we're exposing ourselves to novel stimuli, right? We're exposing ourselves to different loads in our bodies and different ways of relating to the environment and different behaviors and, and that in and of itself, yeah, is a huge thing. So dude, we're not just on the little treadmill, doing the same thing over and over and over again.
Lisa Danylchuk 38:18
And that gets boring for our bodies. I mean, I've definitely gone like go, you know, you kind of go back to Staples or certain classes I love that kind of have a repetitive nature or Yoga works, where I was training, there's like a very yoga work, see core elements of like things that people teach, which I love and have taught. And I've had experiences when I'm following that in my own practice in my mind where my body feels bored. Like it hasn't, because people go to yoga, and they say, Oh, my goodness, my first yoga class, I'm sore in places I didn't know I had, there's so much going on. I couldn't, I only heard every 10th thing the teacher said I was just, you know, there's so much information. But once you're steeped in, in that in any culture, whether it's gymnastics, or yoga or dance, you're steeped in a certain a certain teaching a certain teacher for a number of years. Your body's got it, it's done it it's repeated it right. And sure, you can refine little things but but there's value in that permission to go beyond and it makes me think of it in trauma work, especially we focus a lot on safety, right? Because someone's been hurt. So just like if someone hurt their leg or something, you know, you might cast it like okay, let's really protect let's build that safety. Let's, you know, let this thing heal in a protected environment. But there comes a time when the cast comes off. There comes a time just like you said, where it's move it or lose it like you got to bring back the motion. You got to bring back the the neural connection you got to you know, slowly maybe with support. And and like you said to we're not going to go zero to 100 We're going to kind of every day go a little more and let our body rest and integrate that same thing with Brahmo work like we're not gonna go from, it's too much to tell my story to telling everyone something, you know, in an hour, like you don't go to one therapy session and say, Here's my, I processed all my trauma, like, it just doesn't work that way. But if we show up, and we kind of, okay, this was here today, and this was here today, and I keep moving through and you look back and you're like, Oh, look at all the way. Look at all the ground we just covered. And there's so much possibility in that. And I always, you know, when I'm teaching in terms of yoga for trauma recovery, and in terms of just trauma work in general, I'm like, we need to, like, wake up a little bit around this safety, safety, safety, safety, safety, yes. 100%, agree, something's hurt, protection, safety, nurturing all those things. And then at a certain point, like, what do we do when we're safe? What do animals do when they're safe, they lay down on their belly, and they roll around, and they sort of play bite you and they, I mean, the little kitten we just got comes up and attacks my ankles out of nowhere, which is why they're not in the room right now. Like, that's what we do we play, we move in spontaneous ways we engage with people and other beings, and we move back and forth in this dynamic way. And that, to me, if someone has been through horrific trauma, and they're coming to therapy, and they're wanting to move through it, like, like, let's hold that as, so that the end goal isn't safety, that's part of the journey, right? Feeling more safety as part of the journey so that you can walk into that dance class and move freely, right? And just let what's coming up and try it and mess up. And it's okay, like, mess up in quotes. Right, you can just keep learning.
Carrie Owerko 41:40
Yeah, yeah, I think that that, you know, that was Greg layman, that physical therapist, Greg layman. I think he's the one who coined this phrase, but he's like, with regards to pain, like when he does his courses on pain, science, and biomechanics, sort of reconciling these ideas. Which speaks to some of the stuff that we were talking about earlier, you know, like this sort of looking at this kinesio pathological biomedical model versus the sort of ideas that we see in modern pain science and is like, he'll say, You got to calm shut down, and then build it back up. Do you know so with, because pain is an output from the brain, and it doesn't necessarily mean that there's, from like, a physical level that there's tissue damage. In fact, it's poorly correlated with tissue tap. And so we have a pain experience. It's a pain experience, we're definitely feeling something. But it, there's just so it's multifactorial, and there's so many things that can condition, why we're having that output. And the, the idea of, like, when we have the output, then we're then then for whatever reason, we're not necessarily going to go some people might, I mean, some people, and apparently, it's like, okay, like some people will be able to, once they understand that, that you know, and obviously should like work with something qualified, you know, that that pain is not, there really isn't anything wrong with that part of your body like pathological you can still do this movement, but it might hurt. Some people have different amount of ability to tolerate discomfort, their nervous system for various reasons in a different times. But you know, these sort of general ideas of things, sometimes things need to be calmed down. So that, that there's that there's a little space to let the dust settle, you know, to let the nervous system relaxed, because it could just be excessive tension. It could be stressors in one's life, that's that's that are building up and influencing this output of whatever it is a person is experiencing. But then once things have calmed down, just like you're saying, with your kitten, you know, or like the animals like, they start to explore themselves again, because play is is is something that that all animals do, to learn to learn all kinds of things. And it's holding a step for us humans, as long as statically regulated, it's something that we are drawn towards, and we will start to play in our own way because play can manifest in a lot of different ways. When the conditions are right for it, and especially that happens when we're young. Certainly, I think more than maybe as we get on in life, but We still can play. And those the plays usually a sign that things are things have settled enough to start to expose ourselves again. And in, you know, to the thing that may have been the poison or the thing that we thought hurt us or whatever that was those loads was that experience, which may or may not have had anything to do with why we're having a pain experience, but we might think it does. So which we might be challenging those beliefs by doing a behavior again. But the idea that we're with safety, it's it is really interesting, because it comes up so much. And I think that I've always, I think, trying to remember when I first made was Jack Kornfield. I think he was a Jack Kornfield or was it just the guy that wrote, uh, oh, the other big, you know, main mindfulness guy you probably studied with him. He was at UMass.
Lisa Danylchuk 46:05
Jon Kabat-Zinn?
Carrie Owerko 46:05
Yeah Jon Kabat-Zinn, I think it was, I think it was Jon Kabat-Zinn, I can't remember was a long time ago that I read his some of his books. And same with Jack Kornfield. But I think it was Jon Kabat Zinn, because he taught he worked in prisons, I believe, for a while that could be wrong during his Mindfulness Based Stress Reduction. And I taught in prisons many, many years ago, when I was working with this experimental theater movement Theatre Company. And I was out at Rikers Island for a couple years. And we just didn't talk about safety. And it was interesting, and I and I, like I just remember, we were in there, we would set up these movement games would do our thing. And, um, and a lot of it from my experience was like, learning from the people, the participants, I'm like, I don't know what they're, like, we told stories, they told stories, we've facilitated that, right? That's what you're doing with their body with their words, like, we facilitated this process. And so it was a lot of learning. For me, it was like, so much learning. And, and what I remember Jon Kabat Zinn saying was that, that it's not like it's safe for these people. So we're not going to emphasize this thing. Like, they're living in conditions that we can't understand. Do you know, like, what their lived experiences. And so when we're providing an environment, for the nervous system to relax to entertain certain behaviors, of course, it's contained, there's safety there. But, but that doesn't have to be, I think, constantly articulated can be articulated in the way that you're holding space. In the words that you use in the gestures in the tone that you set, you know, there's so many ways to communicate an idea of permission of, you know, like, because you think about it, like, that's something that we're it's a privilege, I think, in a way, yeah, to be able to play.
Lisa Danylchuk 48:36
The foundation of like safe enough, right. And it's not that we can guarantee any amount of safety for for ourselves or anyone, but there's that privilege of having a safe enough container to feel like it's okay. And I mean, this even goes into early childhood experiences and attachment. It's like if it tends to be that people who have a more secure attachment with their parents will feel more comfortable going out and exploring the world because they have this safe, safe place to come back to they have a supportive container that they got used to, and they can push the risk a little bit. Right. So it's like having that, that place that safe enough is really valuable. And yeah, absolutely. Some people just don't have that by virtue of where they're born or by virtue of different, you know, ways we categorize people like.
Carrie Owerko 49:23
yeah, yeah. And I think that, you know, the, like, I love what you said about safe enough because things are gonna happen. And I think that that's one of the big lessons is that we, that we learn that we are capable of falling down. Do you know what I mean? And getting back up and being hurt, like we're capable of having experiences of getting bruised of, you know, I mean, I'm just like metaphorically or whatever, it'll actually you know, were we stuff can happen and will will actually, little by little learn to trust ourselves again and I know that's really can be really really hard I'm sure like I read something recently in the paper about one of the people in Chicago. Where was that Highland Park? Right? And, and it really scared me like, I don't know, it just really I was just the words that she chose, she said she was you know, she heard those gunshots and she was running at with a friend or a family member. And she said, uh, my legs stopped working like she wasn't struck by a bullet. But she had, like, I guess a freeze response or whatever, she just, she's, I literally fell to the ground, I couldn't move. And then she said she was finally able to track herself with the help of her friend into a store. So they but but she said, my body and those words, just like I really got to me, because she's like, my body failed me in that moment.
Lisa Danylchuk 51:11
It's such a common experience in in trauma survivors and really common in in rape victims as well, because our body just, it gets to a certain level on this, you know, I have like five different models of the nervous system that I think of when I think of these things. But the way we generally understand it is we if we get to a certain level of terror, or threat, that our body will just shut down and play dead, it'll collapse. It'll freeze, it'll, it'll collapse, and it will shut down. Right preserve life and be still so that whatever the threat is, doesn't sniff doesn't sniff us out. Right. It doesn't find us or and or so that we can be numb to the terror of the experience for now. And then usually have to sort of revisit it and reintegrate it slowly later. Right. So there's a lot, there's a lot in what you just said, and I think those are the you know, it's like, I am all for play, and I totally get because I've worked with these different people for so long, like I totally get there are these moments where like that doesn't feel accessible? Well, because your body froze, because it shut down or because there's this really, really horrific thing that like you never want to go back to you never want to reintroduce, like running from bullets, right? Like that's not the goal. And and yet, how do we rebuild enough of a sense of safety. And for some people, they're like, I've got to move, I've got to get out of this neighborhood. Some people like no, this my home, I want to stay here. It's not about the logistical decision. It's more about, like what helps this person, this individual in these unique circumstances, rebuild enough of a sense, get enough support, access their own resilience factors, right, like, get a sense of rebuilding that safety bubble that like, once it's broken in certain ways. We know what, oh, that was possible, that actually did happen. And we don't forget that. But we can sort of rebuild enough of a sense of safety where we're not living frozen when we're not living always hyper or hypo aroused, because of the impact of that trauma, right. And I think that's where, you know, people naturally often will start to, you know, go to this person crawled into a store that felt safer than where they were from there, when they get their legs back, they're probably going to go to family, they're probably going to go somewhere that feels safe and protective and nurturing. And then from there, right, then we start to deal with whatever happened. And at some point, what I would hope for anyone who's been through those kinds of terrifying experiences, is that, especially the ones where our bodies itself start to feel unsafe, that we can start to move back into a little bit of that curiosity. And those invitations to, to play or to just, you know, explore something, explore the edges around something that feels painful, you don't have to go all the way into it, when not to figure it all out in one day. But like, just start to be curious and bring some of that. Like, again, there can be so much seriousness in these incidents and in life. And we can tense up around that, right. But we can also release a little around it, especially with support, like you said, I think with this kind of stuff, especially when it's like a big trauma like this person experienced, like getting professional support, super wise and helpful, like, do you want to do it alone? Or do you want to do it with support is probably gonna be better, you know, with support. And so from there, finding the way forward and knowing that it's possible. I mean, and I've seen people have been through things I won't even describe on here that there is another side, there's another experience, there's something different we can get so trapped in a certain state in our system, especially when we've been through repeated things that we don't even like our nervous system doesn't even recognize what it would be like to like play like a kitten on the floor. are like to even dance in a dance class or to move freely in our bodies or to express what we need. Right? And so I feel like those, and I'm supporting people in these long journeys through finding that, but I just feel like it's so important that we hold. Yes, we're building safety. But we're also like, where's that? Where's that encouragement for someone's authentic nature to flow through them? Right? So it's not I'm telling you how to dance, I'm telling you how to do yoga. It's we're all here together, and we're learning and I'm sharing what I've learned. You know, hopefully, a lot of it's right, some of it we're gonna learn is wrong over time, right? And will course correct and will continue to learn and grow together. But like, the point that it's a, it's a laboratory, right? It's like a place to explore. It's a place to come together and be curious. And again, like, just go back to you asking questions in class. And I was like, This feels so good, right? It's not like, maybe I had the same question. Maybe I didn't, but it's just like, oh, yeah, let's, let's think about this. Let's come at it from another angle. Like, what if we did that upside down? What if we thought of it the reverse way? What if we noticed, where there's contradictions and where there's tension and where there's alignment and where things are flowing and, and we just are curious about that without things having to fall into good and bad and right and wrong. And, and those, you know, really siloed categories we we like to make because it makes life easier? So
Carrie Owerko 56:26
Yeah, I think that it's really what you describe with the those, you know, really traumatic events, circumstances, things that people endure it, you know, so as I just think about play, like dance music, activities that are that you just do. And that in the process of it depends on especially if it's not a dance class where you know, like, but when it's just an if you allow the rhythm and the movement, and the music and the focus and the other people if it's with other people, or play or some activity where you're engaging in life again, do you really mean in a relationship and almost like taking a break? From the other stuff? Do you know what I mean? Like it like, like, I just wonder if, if the if the healing happens? Not because we're trying to but it's because you're doing this, the tapping out this rhythm or there's this, you know, what I mean? Like we're, you're, you're engaging in a way where you're in this game, or you're in this dance, you're having this experience, and it gets that it, you know, whether we're talking about, you know, what is the drug cabinet in the brain, or how is the physiology responding, but we're allowing those kind of, to be a little poetic here, like inner rivers to flow again, for the life, the healing, that I think that just the organism is, like, wants to do, you know, heal itself self-organized, come, like flourish, thrive, that these that these practices, if they are, in my, from my perspective, if there is a if there is space for play, within these environments, whatever the thing is that we're learning or engaging interactivity that we're participating in. That I think that it there's, there are so many levels, that it's facilitating, working, helping us heal, nourishing our organism, no, and so many levels, that allows for I'm sure that's healing, which must be like, again, like, like, multifaceted, there has to be so many different, it's complex, right? Like, this organism is complex. So this process of, of, of moving, you know, of moving from one way of being into another way of being responding that this process is complex, and it I think, play and dance, and I think this is where creative arts therapies, it doesn't even have to be called therapy, though, because let's see, I think that yoga and play and dance and music are the reason people have been doing like dancing, and making music since you know, like the earliest of recorded time is because it's good for us. It is good for us. It is something that we want to do. And I think we want to do it for many, many reasons. And that it and we can look into like explore what are the mechanisms? What are the why why is this good for us? But I think that to that just to look at history, and to look at all these cultures like every freakin culture has like some sort of, like Tommy and I talked about it because we're taking tap right now, like some sort of stamping, tapping, you know, like, there's always that dance, there's always that dance and it feels so good to do it, you know, there's like, there are these things like, why is that it always different cultures all over the world, you know, they've all got their version of it. And what is this doing? You know, and it, it always feels like, and it's working on so many different levels. But, um, but there is this, I just never fails, like, I feel better about practice, like, I always feel different after practice, inevitably, and that is better, it is better after practice better after moving better after dance class, you know what I mean? It's just like, and that is, and especially if it's not a situation in which I, which doesn't have plan, like, if it's one of those classes that is devoid of play, I feel that or a playful attitude, like, just, you know, it doesn't have to be, oh, we're going to be doing games, but like, just the sort of slides, there is some place state if there's some element of play, I feel always feel better. And and I think that that, you know, you your work is so fascinating, because and I just look at the well, people have been experiencing My God, right. But we did these things, right? There were rituals, there were dances, there were there were ways that we, you know, narratives, stories, songs, theater. It is powerful stuff. And yeah, I that's for me play is all of those things. It's all of those things because it is an opportunity to it's almost like a retreat, you know, it's it's a break. It's a, it sort of breaks a certain kind of rumination it can you know, it just, it's sort of chat, it's an opportunity, and you said possibility. I really love that because I feel like, it's just it's like opening a perk, or opening a window and letting a little light in the area. And that alone can be huge. Absolutely. A little light, a little fresh air. Oh, yeah, a wider view, a different perspective, and a different experience of ourselves, and a different experience of the world. And that, you know, that happened, just even having a moment of that can change us
Lisa Danylchuk 1:03:04
I mean, I just think of cause I have moments, I'm 42 Right now I have moments where you know, something happens, I feel a little something in my knee. And then I'm like, Oh, is this it? Is this the beginning of the end? Like, I mean, I know because I we've known each other for a long time, your voices in my head, I know. But the way I think is really powerful. And I noticed those thoughts, or I'll have the other thought that's really funny. I had this just the other day when I was practicing. Oh, I still got it. Yeah, yeah. Or, oh, it's the beginning of the end. It's like, these are both these really temporal things that somehow in my mind, I think like, I would be better at arm balances when I was 20 than I am now. Like, why would that necessarily be the case? Or I think, well, because I feel this thing in my knee for a moment that I'm going to feel it forever. And it's just going to get worse and worse until the end of days. Right? And it's so interesting to catch those cognitive distortions. Oh, yeah. And so the meaning we're making the story we're telling ourselves because if we can be a little more playful with our own thoughts and our own narrative, like we can start to open up like yeah, I can nail this jump and dance class when I'm 59 and I can keep doing it over and over again and I can learn new things and you know, I can opt-in and out I can do that thing and not that thing. It's fine. I can just I can keep moving right and I can stay I think we stay open and we stay open to like you said that those rivers of energy moving through us like we allow for that to keep happening rather than tightening in and closing down and preventing it with a thought or a belief or or whatever it is. Right? We can just play a little and be curious and go well, maybe that feeling or maybe that feeling of mine. He'll be gone tomorrow. Lo and behold, it's gone in 30 seconds and you never feel that again.
Carrie Owerko 1:04:49
That catastrophizing thinking is super common and I think depending on our, our history, we may have had Teachers who reinforced these ideas, or it's certainly there in the media, and you know, like, it's all over, so, but to, to have enough, and it's still my bubble up again. But then I think there, that's where the knowledge is very powerful. And there's the knowledge that we glean from, you know, resources. Like I think learning about pain science is very powerful, because it really reminds you that, you know, pain, it. It's, it emerges and it goes away. Be curious. Yeah. Yeah, being curious, it doesn't mean you're just going to ignore stuff but but I think that would go for like, for any sensation, or idea or thought, or belief that we that these are emergent things, right. And so we, we can observe them without wanting to say overreacting, but with, but just with, like you said, with curiosity, and then understand that, that they can also that they change, because all things change. I mean, that's it. And that we are our our body is an amazing thing. It is an amazing thing, this body and brain are always healing and growing and adapting and remodeling and learning and it's just me like, like, self-organizing all the time. Like, all the time, and it's just like the if there's anything that that that's true, it's that and so the, you know, the, the healing happens, and I and and there are things that we humans behaviors that that perhaps can support us in allowing our organism to do its thing to organize.
Lisa Danylchuk 1:07:03
And there are so many things that support us, right.
Carrie Owerko 1:07:05
So many things that support us, so look for the look for those things to like, where we direct our attention, which is like light like sunlight, right? Like, what plants are we going to water? You know, the fearmongering plant the catastrophising plant, you know, I mean, it really is like, where do you put your attention? It's like you can have something like what happened last night? Was it last night? Um, yeah. So Tommy has this. What's gotten better, but he had this like foot thing like that? A neuroma and his foot very common. Right? So he, he noticed, like, it's like, when does he notice? Like you won't notice it's hurting? Because his attention? Or like, it's elsewhere? Right? Yeah. Like, he's like, Oh, I didn't notice them? You know, it's like, well, that's just so interesting, isn't it? You know what I mean? Like, when you notice when you don't? And like, so, yeah, I where we place our attention? That takes us back to what you first mentioned, which is the focus, you know, the locus of attention, and, and how we use, how we play with that, and that is yoga, like, how are we playing with our attention? How are we playing with our gaze? How are we relating to the environment, to the space to our breath? These are the these are the things that I think we're exploring. And there are so many ways to play with simple behaviors. And, and I but I think the key is, from my perspective is a little play every day, I feel like playing daily is very helpful, because it's like any behavior that you do regularly, you get better at it. And when I say better at it, I just mean, more willing, you're able to use it in different contexts. And it's, it becomes another friend, and another support that you can call upon. Because you're like, visiting regularly. You're having those conversations, you know.
Lisa Danylchuk 1:09:31
Yeah, it becomes a part of your life. And I just think that when you're a kid like you thumb wrestle you play tic tac toe, whatever, like just the spontaneous games and hopscotch on the street or whatever. And so yeah, just bringing back a little bit of that creativity and openness and curiosity. And there's such a, like a light feeling to that and you know, there's so many what, what a lot of us would describe as like heavy things going on in the world. There's a lot of intensity and so having those moments or it's just such a I mean, I want to say this powerful language, but it's like such a cure, right? It feels so curative. It feels so. So opposite. And so, and I think it is healing and therapeutic and all those things, but it's also just like how we are.
Carrie Owerko 1:10:17
Naturally coming home to how we are.
Lisa Danylchuk 1:10:20
Yeah. Well, I know you have to wrap and I want to have you back on like *000 times
Carrie Owerko 1:10:25
We could. We should just do more.
Lisa Danylchuk 1:10:29
Let's, let's do more.
Carrie Owerko 1:10:31
Because it's so interesting. We'll talk.
Lisa Danylchuk 1:10:38
Will keep talking. We'll definitely keep talking.
Carrie Owerko 1:10:41
Thank you so much, Lisa. It's always good talking to you.
Lisa Danylchuk 1:11:02
Thanks, Carrie.
Lisa Danylchuk 1:11:06
Thanks so much for listening. My hope is that you walk away from these episodes feeling supported, and like you have a place to come to find the hope and inspiration you need to take your next small step forward. For more information and resources, please visit howwecanheal.com There you'll find tons of helpful resources and the full transcript of each show. Thanks so much for your messages, feedback, and ideas about the podcast. I love hearing from you and I so appreciate your support. There are lots of ways you can support the show and I'm grateful for every little bit of love you share. If you love the show, please leave us a review on Apple, Spotify, Audible, or wherever you get your podcasts. You can also subscribe on YouTube to get updates every week. You can always visit howwecanheal.com/podcast to share your thoughts and ideas I love hearing from you. So keep your comments coming. If you'd like to stay connected in between episodes, you can also text me the word HEAL to 888-858-0811. That's 888-858-0811. That number has a lot of eights in it. I'll send you some inspiration and support a few times a month and you can text me back there too. Before we wrap up, I want to be clear that this podcast isn't offering any prescriptions. It's not advice or any kind of diagnosis. Your decisions are in your hands. And we encourage you to consult with any relevant health care professionals you may need to support you through your unique path of healing. I'd also like to send thanks to our guests today to Christine O'Donnell and Celine Baumgartner of Bright Sighted Podcasting, and to everyone who helps support this podcast directly and indirectly. Alex, thanks for taking the dogs out while I record. Last week, I'd love to give a shout-out to my big brother man who passed away in 2002. He wrote this music and it makes my heart so happy to share it with you now.
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