Today on the How We Can Heal Podcast, Lisa Danylchuk and Nityda Gessel discuss a path towards healing with a trauma-conscious yoga approach. Nityda shares more on her Trauma Conscious Yoga Method and motivational words to help you towards healing.
Listen on Apple | Spotify | Google | Amazon
About Nityda Gessel:
Nityda Gessel, LCSW, E-RYT, is a mother, licensed somatic psychotherapist, trauma specialist, yoga educator, speaker, author, and heart-centered activist, residing on the unceded land of the Chesepian people, commonly known as Virginia Beach, VA. Nityda has devoted her life to uplifting others, working at the intersection of Eastern spirituality, holistic mental health, and embodied activism. She is the founder of the Trauma-Conscious Yoga Institute, creator of The Trauma-Conscious Yoga Method®, and author of forthcoming Norton book on trauma healing and embodied spirituality.
Outline of the episode:
- [00:02:31] How yoga came into Nityda’s life
- [00:18:34] Slow therapy with trauma patients in private practice
- [00:27:46] The Trauma Conscious Yoga Method
- [00:32:30] Nityda’s start to trauma-informed yoga
- [00:36:45] Shifts in the yoga community
- [00:42:52] Practices to create a safe place for others
- [00:53:24] Supportive words for those struggling right now
- [00:55:18] What gives Nityda hope right now
Resources:
Website: traumaconsciousyoga.com
Follow Nityda on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/trauma_conscious_yoga_method/
The Trauma Conscious Yoga Method on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCcgzt-xiX9obhWy5UVgvpqA/videos
Tell me about you: https://forms.gle/WuF5K8XggF7Spn1A9
Transcription:
Nityda Gessel 0:00
Yoga is about an elevated consciousness, right? Like awakening our consciousness to a different level. When we are conscious of something, we embody a deeper awareness, right. So to be trauma conscious, to me implies an embodiment. To be trauma informed means you heard about it.
Lisa Danylchuk 0:21
Welcome back to Season Two of the How We Can Heal podcast. I so enjoyed sharing season one with you. And we have some incredible guests coming on for season two. I created this podcast because the hard times seem to just keep on coming these days. These guests and I have committed our lives to healing work, and to fostering health and joy in the world, even as we work through the impacts of trauma and face deep challenges. So let's dive in and let's all keep talking about how we can heal. Today, our guest is Nityda Gessel. The TTSL is a licensed clinical social worker and experienced registered yoga teacher, along with being a mother, licensed somatic psychotherapist, trauma specialist, yoga educator, speaker, author and heart centered activist. She resides in the unseeded Land of the Chesapeake and people commonly known as Virginia Beach, Virginia. Nityda has devoted her life to uplifting others working at the intersection of Eastern spirituality, holistic mental health and embodied activism. She's the founder of the Trauma Conscious Yoga Institute, creator of the Trauma Conscious Yoga Method, and author of forthcoming Norton book on trauma healing and embodied spirituality. Nityda Gessel and I first connected through a colleague Zabie Yamasaki, who's also coming on to Season Two. And who teaches trauma informed yoga for sexual assault survivors. I have a special place in my heart for pioneers in yoga and trauma work. So I'm thrilled to have knitted on the show. Let's welcome to Nityda Gessel. All right, welcome to Nityda Gessel. I'm so happy to have you here. Thanks for
Nityda Gessel 2:02
Yeah, thank you for having me.
Lisa Danylchuk 2:05
So I'm super excited to talk with you. Because I think we have a lot of things in common. I'm sure our own unique takes on stuff too. But it seems like you've been into clinical work and yoga and bringing them together for a long time now. So I'm excited to hear kind of how that manifests and comes through for you.
Nityda Gessel 2:22
Yeah, I'm excited to share more about that.
Lisa Danylchuk 2:25
So let's start with yoga. How did yoga come into your life?
Nityda Gessel 2:30
Yeah, I find myself taking a deep exhalation. For whatever reason, you know, yoga came into my life at a time when I really needed a lot of help. I was in my own trauma healing journey, without really having that language or understanding that that's what it was. This was 16 years ago, in the early 2000s. You know, so I feel like trauma informed care has blown up. You know, people know what it means they know what it is, for the most part, but back then we didn't have that language. And even I feel like talking about trauma was more taboo back then I thought, what many people thought back then, which was if you're a war veteran, you know, maybe you have PTSD, and I wasn't a war veteran. But I was struggling in my life. And I was also going through a bit of an identity crisis. So I grew up dancing. dancing was like my whole life, went to performing arts high school, and then dance professionally and semi professionally with a couple of different ballet companies in my early adulthood after I graduated from high school, yeah. And dance, you know, growing up for me, was actually a way for me to metabolize trauma, you know, not recognizing that necessarily, but it was so liberating for me to have that as an outlet growing up. But then moving into the professional world, actually felt a lot of conflict, you know. There was a lot of trauma. There was a lot of verbal assault. There was sexual assault. There's a lot that I experienced in the dance world that was very disemboding. And that manifested for me actually, as a eating disorder, anorexia. So activation warning, I guess for for listeners, you know, I'm going to share just a little bit, not a whole lot of detail, but I do want to be mindful that people may be struggling with that or have struggled with that in their past. And that's my story. So, you know, I've got to a point when I was dancing, where I just felt, I can't do this to my body anymore. This isn't sustainable. It's never been sustainable. I always knew that but I had a bit of a wake up call. And thanks to a friend and a colleague in the company. And so I decided to stop dancing and focus on healing. And I grew up in a home with a yogi, but my father he didn't practice Asana. He did the Yoga Sutras. He's what you call a Raja yogi. So he studied the Yoga Sutras are focused on meditation. And he also practice Buddhism. So he never introduced that to us as kids. I have three siblings, but I always witnessed that as a part of his practice and what that did for him. So I was really interested in yoga as a spiritual practice, and Buddhism. And so in leaving the dance world, I said, I'm gonna go down that path. And so I got into yoga. And it was profoundly healing for me. And the asana was too. But it was also like the roadmap that is the philosophy of yoga. It gave me a sense of structure and understanding of myself in the world. And then I got to meditate and go inside and actually experience it in my body. And it was just incredibly liberative.
Lisa Danylchuk 5:57
So it took on a healing current pretty quickly, and then took you in, yeah, to that meditative place where you could really connect internally.
Nityda Gessel 6:06
Right and exactly that. And, you know, I, I had always wanted to become a therapist, I thought I went dance until I couldn't dance anymore. So until I'm, like, 35. That's how long ballet careers last. I thought I would dance, you know, till I was about 35. And become a clinical psychologist. That was the future I saw for myself. And when I left dancing, I did intend on becoming a therapist, not a yoga teacher. You know, I went to yoga, for healing, and it was very healing right away. But having this desire to become a clinician, I felt like oh, my goodness, like this yoga is therapy. And then I was like, well, you know what, talk therapy has never done this for me. And at that point, I hadn't done that much individual talk therapy, to be honest. Like, we had done family therapy when I was a kid, before my parents got divorced. But I felt like there's something about yoga, you know, and also dancing, moving had always been a form of expression for me. So I said, you know, I'm gonna become a therapist, still, I'm still interested in that. But I'm not going to be somebody that just sits on a couch and talks to you and listens, you know, all of that is important. But we're also going to get on the floor. We're going to be and we're going to move, you know. Right away, I found myself as integrating yoga into the work that at that point, I wasn't doing yet that that I desired to do.
Lisa Danylchuk 7:33
Yeah, I resonate with so much of what you're saying, I danced as a kid. And honestly, my best memories of dancing were like putting on a tutu and doing a performance in the living room for my parents. It didn't take long I was in ballet classes. And it was like tuck, tuck, tuck. And I was like, I am talking. I can't tuck anymore. Like, that's just my butt. Like, what do you want me to do?
Nityda Gessel 7:54
Oh my goodness yes
Lisa Danylchuk 7:56
And so I was young. I mean, I was probably like, six when I left ballet. And then I did a bunch of other dance stuff, which was like, a little more, but the culture matters so much in those places. And I think, you know, yoga cultures can be more healing centered, but I mean, even that's yoga has been working through a lot in the last few years and continues to in terms of being a healing culture, or a, you know, safe enough space. But definitely, I mean, just my personal experience in dance was super early on being like, but this is just my body, what do you want me to do with it? Like, that's all I got. But I loved to move and dance and, and yoga can bring some of that expressiveness. And so be a little more structured, I think, depending on how people obviously share it. But I definitely have that wish that for yoga, and for just any kind of movement, but dance, there's like more, I don't know, safety or like openness for it to just be, I guess, more expression centered or more experience, focused. Because it's can be such a beautiful modality and it can be so healing if there isn't, right shame or these other things coming in to, to, to the culture. And then also, I don't know if you know that both of my parents are therapists. So like, I totally resonate with, no, we're not going to sit in a chair. We're not just going to talk about it and ask how you feel about that important question, but we're also going to move and breathe and do something a little different. So it sounds like for you, the two came together, really sort of wove in from the start. It wasn't like, I want to be a therapist, and I'm into movement and I'm gonna bring them together. It was just like there was no way.There's no way these are going to be separate. You saw it, you saw it moving together from the beginning.
Nityda Gessel 10:05
Yeah, I would say that for sure. I understood the integration immediately, you know. And the the usefulness of it. You know, and I think I've always really aligned with Eastern practices anyway. I think that just by nature, I gravitate toward Eastern practices and Eastern medicine. And I also lived in Asia, I lived in Japan when I was a child for three years. So you know, this idea of East and West, integrating, you know, and pulling from both, you know, as a Westerner, no, but knowing that there's so much medicine and these eastern practices, it just felt right to me. And I think we see that because so many of Western psychotherapy is or has been influenced by Eastern practices, like mindfulness, for example, is huge, in many different cognitive behavioral therapies and other forms of psychotherapy. Right. And that's an Eastern practice. So
Lisa Danylchuk 11:02
Yeah
Nityda Gessel 11:03
Yeah
Lisa Danylchuk 11:04
So when did trauma start to fold in for you? Did you have a class in undergrad or grad school? Or you mentioned not really having that perspective, early in your own experience? When did that start to come into play?
Nityda Gessel 11:17
Yeah, probably like, Oh, my goodness, maybe like a decade later, because what ended up happening was, I randomly got certified to teach yoga, maybe like six months after I started practicing, I didn't plan on it, it kind of just happened, who fell into it. And then it was fun. And I just started teaching yoga full time, and didn't go back to school. I had my bachelor's degree in psychology, but I didn't go back to be master's level clinician right away. So it was probably seven to 10 years later that I finally went to grad school. And in grad school, people started talking about trauma. And it was still very much though, like, if you were a war veteran, or, you know, childhood sexual abuse, physical childhood physical abuse, or sexual assault, you know, there wasn't, there wasn't talk about racial trauma or intergenerational trauma that I was, you know, in contact with during grad school, because this was still 10 years ago, this was like a decade ago. But I was interested, you know, and what I immediately loved about trauma work right away, is that the mental health field can be very pathologizing. And I heard that language when I was in school, like this very pathologizing language from some professors. I mean, even an undergrad, I took a class in what was called abnormal psychology, like, that's the name of where you learn about all the DSM diagnoses, you know. So, you know, and I never, that never really meshed well with me, you know, at this point, I've been teaching yoga for 10 years, and I just looked at the world in a different way. But what I heard was that there was a shift in energy and in language, when my fellow grad students and my professors would talk about trauma. It automatically became more human-centered and hopeful. And like, this isn't your fault. And I felt very shaming and blaming sometimes outside or even Doom based, you know, sometimes, like, you had schizophrenia sorry, you know, outside of the trauma world, and I just I loved this shift in energy when it came to trauma. And I was like, this is where it's at. This is what resonates with me. And then learning more study more, I came to the understanding, oh, we're all trauma survivors. We have all been through a lot. Collectively, generationally, individually and personally. So this is something we could all benefit from.
Lisa Danylchuk 13:53
It seems like even in its most basic form, when we study trauma or trauma-informed practice, it's like let's just learn about how our nervous system responds to threat. How it responds to extreme stress, some of the patterns that are common, some of the things that are vastly different, right. Like even with war veterans and PTSD, we kind of have our Oh, well, that means nightmares. That means cold sweats, that means that it's like, physiologically, we can respond in ways that look, you know, opposite each other. That can still be a trauma response. And if we can know that about ourselves and others, so much other stuff just fits in. And I really appreciate what you're saying about the DSM and diagnosis. It's so ironic, right? We're talking about mental health. And then whenever oh, let's let's learn about mental health. Step one, take your course in abnormal psychology. What about what about mental health if we're talking about Yeah, cultivating that, or? Yeah, trauma informed care brings some so much more of a human and like inclusive perspective like this. There's this as being human. This is our, how our bodies tend to work with variety and with variants, but then it's like, okay, from there, you know, the questions of like, what happened to you the question of what's right with you the question of how does this all make sense? Yeah, it takes takes away that checkbox pathologizing, the recent episode, we talked about dissociation and schizophrenia, and how often it's misdiagnosed and disproportionately in African Americans in the United States. And how if we just have, like that understanding of trauma and how it can impact people. And if we can sort of lean towards each other and try to understand and be curious, like, those two things can make a huge difference, even how someone's diagnosed and what, what their medication with their treatment is. Oh, it's really interesting.
Nityda Gessel 15:57
Yeah. And I wanted to just real quick, you know, emphasize the power of language to shift a perspective, because when you said, Now we're going to talk about mental health, why are we opening the DSM, you know, because the framework, then it's mental illness, right. So the difference between mental health and mental illness, right, you hear the world word illness, and you have a totally different image that comes into your mind a totally different experience in your body versus the word health, you know, it's just a choice of language. But it gives you a totally different, like, kinesthetic experience, you know, and an understanding. So I think language is super powerful. And, and just to speak to that, one other thing is like, I think when we get to a place where we feel like we don't have to be the expert all the time, you know, when we get to a place where our ego has been taken enough care of by us, that it doesn't need to be this expert, or need to fix this person, you know, we can let go of the need to diagnose or stigmatize or whatever the case may be, because that's not what gets us excited anymore. It's we're a little more grounded than that.
Lisa Danylchuk 17:09
Right there. It's not like the therapy or whatever it is, is trying to fill a need of the provider or maintain a power structure or anything like that. It can be more collaborative, and I was find it really interesting. And in some conversations, maybe this is happening less now. But people talk about different cultures and how people experience therapy or what they need. And, you know, some folks will say, well, certain cultures, they want you to be the authority. And it's like, well, what does that say? And how does that mirror the larger structure of that culture? And what's more beneficial for you to then like, take that seat or for you to start to break that down? And that's a complex conversation. But it also does the thing of deflecting, oh, well, if I'm the professional, and I figured out all my stuff, right? Focus on this problem over here so that I can feel better about myself or whatever, right? There's a lot of dynamic that can get silently swirled into this work, like doesn't I don't think really serve anyone? So I see a lot of people unpacking that now, which is challenging, but important.
Nityda Gessel 18:16
It's important, for sure, for sure.
Lisa Danylchuk 18:19
So how do you work in private practice? You work in the yoga sense, you blend the two together? What do you feel like people are looking for when they come to you? Are they looking to resolve trauma? Like what would their language be?
Nityda Gessel 18:34
Um, so in private practice, when people come to me, they don't usually use the language of I'm here to resolve trauma. Sometimes people do, right. But the common thread I see between clients, and I've worked with children, I've worked with men, but right now all my clients are self-identified women. The common thread is that people feel disconnected from themselves, their true self, and they don't even know who they are anymore. And so it's what I call a spiritual crisis. They're trauma survivors, right? But they may not identify as that and whether or not they do it doesn't really matter, right. But what I see in front of me is a sense of disease and this uncertainty around who am I and what am I supposed to be doing in my life right now? And why can't I figure it out? You know, and shame is something that most of us I would, you know, dare to say maybe all of us carry or have carried at some point. There's a lot of shame, usually. And people tend to have very layered experiences of trauma that they're not necessarily speaking to, but they may somewhat be aware of, right so a lot of the self-identified women I see are a global majority, meaning they're women of color. So there's going to be lots of intergenerational stuff, racial stuff ongoing. And a lot of my clients are. Are childhood trauma survivors, either sexual or physical both. And I actually have a decent number of clients who grew up in cold, cold environments. They were churches, but they were basically cold that distance them from their their true nature. So there's this confusion around well, now who the hell am I left this cold? You know, but I don't know how to think for myself without having all this guilt and judgment around every decision I make.
Lisa Danylchuk 20:27
Yes. I mean, that's just another example of how culture and especially when it goes to the extreme of being a cult can be so influential on what's happening internally for us, right? Like, how does the culture facilitate you being curious, connecting to yourself noticing what's coming up asking questions, and if that stuff isn't allowed, and we get organized around it, and then we step out of it takes a while to unpack how that translated internally?
Nityda Gessel 20:54
Mmhmm. Yeah, we're all carrying a lot of conditioning, whether we grew up in a cult, or we just grew up in this culture. It's so funny that cult, you know, isn't the word culture? Yeah, I think we're all carrying so much conditioning that we need to unpack and unload and work with
Lisa Danylchuk 21:15
and have space for that, I feel like one of the things Yoga does in a fast-paced culture is in a lot of classes will start fast and then slow down, there's men's variety in that, but that's like the poppy a lot of popular Yoga will like move and then rest at the end. And I feel like that space that the rest creates over time, is when we can really start to see and feel what's inside. And, and super fast-paced cultures, you know, we can talk about the roots of that. But super fast-paced cultures, like they're bypassing, like avoiding that feeling and reflection and like, unpacking that can happen. So it can be a lot, which is why, you know, we pace and all of that, but, but actually starting to drop into some of that and go, what about this? And what about that? And question takes space and takes energy.
Nityda Gessel 22:11
Right? Right. And that when people come to see me in therapy, the type of therapy I offer, it is like that rest you get in Shavasana. That's what the whole session is like, meaning that it's slow. You know, it's connected in Word, it's layered, right? But there's always this, this attempt, at least to connect to some level of compassion, or at least neutrality or curiosity, you know, in the beginning, because when people are feeling like disconnected from themselves, you know, it's really important for people to understand like, there's something inside each of us that is the same. And that same thing that's in each of us is something that is indestructible, meaning that trauma cannot break it, so we can access that, then that's actually the healing agent, it's within you. So I'm here to help you access that, that that is already within you.
Lisa Danylchuk 23:09
Yeah, it's an internal locus, it's the opposite of what we were talking about earlier, I think maybe an older model of, you're gonna go get treatment, right? Or you're gonna go get something from someone else, and one's going to fix you or that kind of language. So what do you find yourself repeating? Often this might be for yourself in sessions, or in communication with others, like, what are you just mentioned? Compassion, and curiosity, are there other things that feel like they form the groundwork?
Nityda Gessel 23:41
Yeah, so one of them, I think we were just talking about which is the answers are within which people have different reactions to you grew up in a cult, this is totally opposite of what you've ever been told. But so we unpack that we've worked with that, that's great to have activation in session because then that's what we want to work with. That's where the healing happens. So one, the answers are within. And then another one I share with people a lot is the journey is the medicine. Right? We don't have to focus on this outcome. Healing is ongoing. And the journey is the medicine inspires curiosity around patience, right, and also acknowledging what's actually happening in the present moment. Right, and celebrating those small what may seem small, right, but could also be perceived as major, you know, areas of, of change of progression or transformation, right, which is happening all the time. We're already changing and growing all the time. So if we put intention toward that, then even more is going to be happening. It's just not always really clear. You know, it's not so obvious all the time, but it's always there.
Lisa Danylchuk 24:58
Ahead Like that relationship with, whether it's a therapist or a mentor or something where someone can sort of reflecting back some of that progress, it can be really helpful because we tend to just sort of keep swimming forward, or direction, right. And it's like, you don't always notice. I remember an EMDR therapist early on when I was in grad school, like reading back my goals when I came in, and like 10, sessions 12 sessions in and I was like, really, I said that that's not a problem anymore. But if you were to ask me, how much progress have you made? I'd have been like, oh, it's still the same, or sometimes we don't, we don't notice.
Nityda Gessel 25:35
Right. And sometimes I think that's because we, I think some people, not you necessarily, but some people think that, once I'm healed, ED healed, you know, that I will have no more problems. I won't ever experience anger, I won't ever, you know, experience frustration, I won't ever be sad. So basically, you think you're gonna heal and no longer be a human being.
Lisa Danylchuk 25:58
I'll just be happy all the time. And everything will be perfect and wonderful and tied up in a little bow.
Nityda Gessel 26:04
And so yeah, it's so if we just had a bad day, the day before, our therapy session may come in, and we're in a bad mood, and we're feeling all this shame or guilt, you know, it's helpful if the person that's been working with you, that has been keeping track and has a more objective, a loving, but the objective experience of your experience, right. We can reflect back for you. But wait, look, this is something to celebrate. Do you recognize that like five weeks ago, this is what was happening and look at what's happening right now? Look at your response to the annoyance that you experienced, experienced yesterday versus five weeks ago, you know, you probably would have had to call out of out of work. And you know, you might have gotten into a fight with your partner, you know, so I totally agree, I think that's one of the benefits of the therapeutic relationship is it gives you that sense of community, right, and helps you to see things that are harder to see on your own.
Lisa Danylchuk 26:59
And it provides that space where things can be slower, and we can pay attention. And we can, you know, maybe not dismiss certain things actually look at them or value them, and value that progress, too. So I know you came into therapeutic work and working clinically or in private practice with this movement, and like, let's sit on the floor. I'm sure you've had conversations with other therapists who are like, oh, I'm stuck to my chair, what do I do? What do you what kind of encouragement might you off therapists or people who are doing you know, medical work, healing work, where they're like, I want to bring in movement? I just don't know how or where to start?
Nityda Gessel 27:46
Yeah, I mean, this comes up a lot. So you know, I lead training and a method called the trauma conscious yoga method that I formulated, which integrates trauma, conscious yoga and somatic therapy practices. And this training was designed for clinicians originally, and now, now other people come as well, medical professionals who are not mental health professionals come yoga teachers come body workers, etc. But this is a, this is a concern that shows up for a lot of therapists, you know, it's like, okay, how do I actually do this? We go over that in the training. But one of the things is that I invite clinicians and others, to examine, to go inside, what is it happening inside of you? That's keeping you from doing this with someone. Because a lot of the times clinicians like within the training we go over, like, literally a roadmap of this is how you can do this with somebody, this is how you can move from the couch to the floor, this is why you would do it. This is where you would do it. This is how you would do it. And they practice doing it. But there's still that reservation or that anxiety for some therapists, right? So what is it that's coming up for you right now, that's making you either ambivalent or unsure or scared about introducing this to your clients on Monday? And so we work with that. And so I would say it's, it's, you have to work with your own stuff, you know, sometimes clinicians will say, you know, what, when I really connect to it, it's this fear that they're no longer gonna like me, because we've never done this before, and I may not be good at it, and they're gonna think that I don't know what I'm doing anymore. Or, or for some clinicians, it's like, oh, they're gonna think I'm weird. If I start doing yoga, I'm gonna be one of those people. So, I want to I would say we have to do our own self-inquiry and figure out whenever we're unsure about something, is there any part of us that's getting in the way, and how can we support that part of it?
Lisa Danylchuk 29:53
I really appreciate that. And then how can we support that part of us? Some part of what you said one of the places I go, or that I think I hear a lot with folks is like, it's not the way they were trained, it feels unprofessional. Or it feels like, oh, I can sit on the floor with kids. But with adults like there, it feels different. And I feel like some of it even connects to just the way we're raised to, like, slowly stop playing and you know, be a little more restricted over time isn't, oh, this is an adult thing to do. And this is a child thing to do. And it's like, well, that's kind of a just, like, we just grow over time. And can we? Can we sit on the floor? Isn't that I think so. And, you know, culturally, there's plenty of people all over the world that squat or sit and it's kind of that Western-like, Chair thing.
Nityda Gessel 30:50
And literally, as you're saying that you can see me because we have a video right now. And I know listeners won't, but like you see me they'll be here smiling. Because I've heard this so much. And I get it right, like, but when you said people are like what, this doesn't feel professional? Well, here is that example of how white body supremacy has been conditioned into you. Let's work with it. Right? Because like you just said, all over the world, other cultures, right? Don't spend all their time sitting in chairs, and don't have the back problems we have either. No, but also like what has this heteropatriarchy and white body supremacy conditioned into us that to be professional, we can only be a certain way. And it has to be super rigid. It has to be super contained. And honestly disembodied, right? Because if you don't work with the body, if you're disconnected, then that's disembodiment. You know, you're not fully human. If you're not connected to your body, you're not really living into your full capacity to be a human being. You're not connected to your heart. Right? So I think it's, I get where that comes from. But I that's again, something I would invite somebody to go inward and explore, right? Where does this come from? Is this really what you believe? If you live in another culture? Would you believe this? Right? Because to say to get on the floor is unprofessional. Like that's coming from somewhere?
Lisa Danylchuk 32:15
Yeah, absolutely. So when did trauma-informed yoga, get in your awareness? Like did was it something when you were studying that you saw people doing or did it? Did it sort of just come together on its own for you?
Nityda Gessel 32:30
You know, it's funny, how did this get into my way? I kind of just started doing it. And I think I learned about David Emerson and Bessel Vander Kolk. And their work shortly afterward, but I was already you know, working as a clinician. So when I started working as a clinician, meaning like, I went to social work school, so it's, if you go full time, it's two years, it's intense, they load they loaded. And you do two graduate-level internships, and you start your first year, like your first day. So you start working as an intern therapist right away. And so everywhere, I went from intern to hired therapist to private practice, whatever, I brought yoga, and it was interesting to them, the only place I ever got resistance was a trauma clinic. It was really weird, a trauma clinic and Brooklyn. This was before I had done a lot of somatic therapy training. So the somatic work I was doing with people was yoga. I wasn't yet doing like internal family systems therapy or somatic experiencing. But I was working at this trauma clinic, and they wanted us to use these more cognitive behavioral forms of therapy, which is not, you know, whatever. But they were resistant toward me bringing a yoga class. But for me, yoga was always a part of it. You know, there was always a part of the healing because like I like we talked about as a part of my personal journey, that was just what it was. So it's hard, because I don't have like a clear line of like this started here. Right. But I know that when I moved to Austin, and I was there for seven years, just move to Virginia Beach where I am now, you know, so maybe like, seven, eight years ago. I was doing this work in private practice. And as a trauma specialist, and people in the community got to know what I was doing. And they knew that I integrated yoga, and people were asking about what I was doing. And I think at that point, I kind of probably made a clear connection that will I guess what I'm doing is like what people call trauma-informed Yoga. But it's also it was also kind of more than that in the sense that it was, you know, integrating like somatic therapy work and whatnot. But
Lisa Danylchuk 34:49
how would you define trauma-informed yoga versus trauma-conscious yoga are those like how does that land in your mind?
Nityda Gessel 34:55
Yeah, that's a great question. Again. I think language is super important to me. So really, I mean, the one way to answer that is there's no difference. It's just a different word. But then I guess another way to answer it is, you know, conscious resonates with me. Yoga is about an elevated consciousness, right? Like awakening our consciousness to a different level. When we are conscious of something, we embody a deeper awareness. Right? So to be trauma conscious, to me implies an embodiment to be trauma-informed means you heard about it, I guess, if you really wanted to get into the nitty gritty of right, but it didn't again, they could also just be two birds that are interchangeable. So pick one.
Lisa Danylchuk 35:44
When I hear it from you now, I think about how mental we can be with things. Right, like trauma-informed, feels more mental conscious feels more about something beyond just intellectualizing. So yeah, that's an interesting distinction.
Nityda Gessel 36:05
Can I add to like, I'm very much into yoga is a spiritual practice and not secularizing it for the taste of Western society? So to me, consciousness as well connects to that spiritual component that is integral and inherent within the yoga practice.
Lisa Danylchuk 36:27
Yeah. So you've been teaching yoga for a long time, in a very therapeutic way with that orientation? What are some of the shifts you'd like to see happen within the yoga community? Or maybe you see happening already? Where would you like to see yoga go?
Nityda Gessel 36:45
Yeah, that's a beautiful question. Um, yeah, I mean, and I'm pleased to say that I do see this shift happening. You know, I think it comes down to one honoring and Susana Baca. Taki does great work on this honoring the roots of yoga, celebrating the culture and the people and the land from which yoga comes, speaking to that continuously supporting continuously educating other people about that continuously thinking about how in Western society, do we benefit from the harm harming of people from this culture? Right, you know, so yoga comes from India. And, you know, just for example, like during COVID, the way India was hit with the pandemic was, you know, disproportionately just horrible, right? So if we're, if we have benefited from this practice that belongs to this culture, and there's a struggle happening, there's suffering happening, what are we doing to uplift, you know, so more of that conversation and then just increased inclusivity you know, diversity and awareness and an increased honoring and speaking to the fact that yoga is a social justice practice. It's been used as a social justice practice since its roots, you know, it's it's an ancient practice, it's always been used as a way to both alleviate suffering and seek liberation, right, seek freedom from confinement. So those conversations are important.
Lisa Danylchuk 38:29
So how do you see trauma-informed yoga in particular, or trauma, conscious yoga, cultivating individual healing in folks and also contributing to collective healing?
Nityda Gessel 38:42
So many ways, so many ways, I guess. And on one level, if we're going to look at. I'm going to talk about it on like a neurobiological level and then a spiritual level. I'm saying that I don't forget. Um, so in a neurobiological way, just looking at the nervous system. You know, I like to say suffering begets more suffering. So when there's suffering that's happening in the world, it's because people who have power and wealth are suffering. And they're projecting that suffering outward. And so what is internal suffering? It's a discombobulation in the nervous system. Right? It's a disembodied moment. It's a it's a lack of control over one's own body that we often then take out on other bodies, right? So trauma, conscious yoga offers a pathway to become more embodied. And then when we're embodied, we can connect to and listen to our hearts. We can connect our head to our heart, right? When we're suffering, our head is disconnected from our heart. And we can do things to other people, right because we don't have that heart-to-head connection. So you, they'll offer is an antidote to that trauma-conscious Yoga, you know, where we can get our nervous system online in a way that it's beneficial. You can connect to our hearts, we can recognize oneness, this is starting to get into the spiritual aspect of it right? That we can recognize oneness within each of us. And look at the fact that we're all in this together. Right? Nobody is free until everybody is free. Somebody has power and money and wealth, and they have authority because they are this lead political leader or that political leader, right? That doesn't mean that that person is free, you are free, they wouldn't be taking other people's freedom. Right. So that's one, you know, and it relates to the spiritual aspect, right? It's like when we connect to our true nature, which yoga, trauma, conscious yoga, and yoga, in general, can support us in doing, we get, we're good. And we recognize that our true nature is all the same, there's something inside each of us that is the same, meaning that there is nothing that's truly outside of us. So there's nothing that's outside of us, everything is a part of us, right, then there's no need to create that separation in that hierarchy. And Trump says yoga can be a support for that.
Lisa Danylchuk 41:12
There's so much in what you just said. And I found myself thinking about when I was doing my internship in Massachusetts, where I worked in middle school and high school, in Jamaica Plain. And then I also worked right before I started grad school at a therapeutic boarding school where there were like, legit princes and princesses that were sent there. And how similar the emotional problems were like, and how, you know, on on socio-economic ends of the spectrum, like neglect and abuse and substance abuse like these, there are these themes that are really similar, even though they appear as like very different populations, and how so much of that, you know, can make us feel really disconnected from ourselves from other folks kind of bringing back to what you were talking about in your work in private practice, where it's like, really reconnecting with yourself and then seeing yourself and others. So it was just beautiful the way you described it, I really appreciate that. Yeah, sure. So one of the things, you know, I think we talk about a lot in trauma-informed care, trauma-informed practice. Trauma-informed yoga is cultivating safety and or, you know, feeling safe enough for certain things. So what in your mind are our hearts are some important things that cultivate a sense of safety for you, as a facilitator or provider or whatever role you're in? And what are some things that you intentionally practice to seek to create that safety for others?
Nityda Gessel 42:52
Yeah. So really wonderful question. You know, so on one level, I guess, externally, what creates a safe space for me. One is just the energy I get when I walk in, right. So ideally, there are people that look like me, you know, ideally, there, I'm not the only one, you know, in brown skin. Ideally, I'm not the only woman, you know, I'm, that's the ideal, however, if that's not the case, if the body language is right, so I mean, I've had to navigate a lot of white spaces. I mean, I was a ballet dancer. So I mean, I've known this from a very young age, right, but also going into higher education and academia, you know, like, so, you know, I, I've had to navigate a lot of white spaces. And even though the idea was for it to not be that if the energy is warm, you know, if the energy is loving, if the energy is disarming, then then that can still feel safe to me. And I think part of the reason for that is because that's not this is not the, you know, the general bipoc experience, necessarily, this is just my experience, right? Is I have clients, for example, who are like no, if I'm going to be the only one that's never going to be safe for me, right. And I think what makes it okay, for me is just one I think how I want to be okay, regardless of I've done the type of internal work and I'm not saying everybody has to do this work, right, but I'm learning to and deconditioning out of me, this prejudgment right. So have I been harmed by non BIPOC people? You know, in my life? Yes. Do I need to anticipate that every non BIPOC person I encounter is going to harm me? No, because that's a horrible way to live. It's not a free way to live. So I've worked with my own stuff to recognize like how I I have internalized the separation that's been, you know, beaten into me by people who have told me that I'm different, or I'm other, I'm lesser because of the color skin I have or XYZ, right? So, because even though people have treated me that way, I don't want to embody that. I don't want to carry that that's not mine. Right? So for me, safety starts within it, safety is in me. If I'm safe in me, then if I go into a room where, you know, I might experience some disease, but I, but I know I can I can, I can be aware of what's really happening in the moment, versus like, some level of conditioning. I think trying if that makes sense.
Lisa Danylchuk 45:43
Yeah. And it makes me think back to just that word consciousness, right of being conscious of this as an experience. This is a thought pattern or habit or something that responded to something that I experienced before. So it's valid, but it's not necessarily what's happening right now. And I feel like that's really deep work. And I feel like just from personal experience, it's almost like the more triggered we are, the less we think we're triggered. That's just for me. I like no, this is what's happening right now. And you get really like passionate about this is it this is the ultimate reality and knowing right? And for me, personally, it's taken, like really loving, trusting relationships with folks to question that, because then when the other person says, That's not what's happening right now, that's not what I'm thinking. That's not the dynamic, I feel or sense. And I have to have that like, really solid foundation to be like, really? Wow. So this is just me right now. And or this is a remnant from something I experienced in Dynamics growing up, or, you know, this could be really young or middle school, or high school or even after that, but feel like those developmental things get really solid, right? We go through that neural pruning as an adolescence, and then we're like, this is the way the world works. This is the way the dynamic works. But when we can have consciousness or awareness of like, maybe, maybe that's not the ultimate truth. And I feel like it just speaking personally, like when I can have a trusting relationship, to question that with someone that becomes really powerful, but like we spoke to earlier, having space to understand that having reflective time having those, you know, safe enough relationships where you can start to go, wait, what's really going on here? Feels really important.
Nityda Gessel 47:40
Yeah, for sure. Yeah, what you're saying really resonates. And, yeah, we carry a lot of No, the shame we carry influences what we expect when we go into a setting, and what we actually ended up experiencing from our perspective, there. But I do want to say one thing, though, to that, because I did bring up the example, the example I brought up was related to race, you know, so. So, you know, as a BIPOC, or global majority person, we we have become very sensitive to, you know, microaggressions and separation. And we can we can sense, you know, when somebody may experience a separation from us, you know, based on how we look, we have that sense, right? You know, but maybe that's not what's always happening, necessarily. But as a person of the dominant culture, I just want to share, you know, if a BIPOC person does say that to you, you know, I felt this way I was getting this sense from you, you know, as a white person, it's important to listen, just to listen and to validate and understand, as opposed to like, oh, no, that's not what I meant. That's not what was happening for me. Right? I want to be very, very clear on that, right? Because there's so we don't know ourselves. We think we know ourselves, but we don't, we don't know ourselves, right? Very well at all, there's parts of us that we have never touched that we've added dialed, we've never touched parts of us, especially the parts of us that may be carrying some of this intergenerational baggage because who wants to go there? You know, and if you are navigating the world in the white body, you don't have to go there necessarily, unless you really want to. So I do want to be really clear, you know, when when it comes to race-related things or anywhere where there's like oppression, privilege dynamic between two people. So maybe there is a cisgender person and a transgender person, you know, the person who has the social privilege really just has to step back and say, Okay, I'm just gonna listen to this. This was the experience the person had, then I need to be curious, you know, what if what they're saying is true about me Maybe I was holding that and didn't realize it. And that's how we can really support collective healing is by doing our own work getting our nervous system to a place where we can handle discomfort and still listen.
Lisa Danylchuk 50:14
Yes. I appreciate that distinction between a, you know, I'll just say a general trigger or race specific or social dynamic, specific. And, you know, I'm thinking we can't I don't know that we can ever identify, like, tell someone else that they're triggered. Like, I can think of a dear friend where I might say something, and even the language might be different. But like, Honey, I love you. And I feel like you're super triggered right now. I feel like some of this might be from that stuff that happened before? I don't know. I love you. It's talking about it. But, but that's even usually when it's not inter it's not between the two people. But to your point, right, where there's oppression and privilege within a dynamic that's important to factor in to. I always feel like I come back to curiosity about like, what is happening right now? What is happening for you? What is happening for me? And how is that dancing together? Because a lot of times, you know, it's that if you want to call it like, projection or transference and countertransference, or whatever, but it's this, like, my internal conditioning. And you're like, my collective experiences from my whole life, your collective experiences from your whole life. And, you know, there's a lot in between. And there's sometimes these places we kind of puzzle piece together in a dance or in a dynamic or in a, in a way where we're, we're in it, and we can't see. So I feel like that space, the slowing down the stepping back, and just the like, what is this and I might not figure it out today. And it might take a while to unpack the things that are happening that we are aware of aren't aware of, just to bring that sort of stepping back openness? I find really helpful, because then it's like, okay, well, let me look at, let me look at what's coming up for me right now, maybe even in a separate space, and then come back. Like in a therapeutic sense, that might be supervision or consultation or whatever,
Nityda Gessel 52:33
yeah, we can relax the sense of urgency, we have to figure something out or to be right, or whatever the case may be, we can just soften that and like you said, show up with curiosity, you know, because we don't have to know there's nothing you need to know. Right. But how we can heal from all that we've all, you know, been through generationally that we're carrying now. It's just by being more open toward one another, you know, talking less listening more.
Lisa Danylchuk 53:02
So what would you say? You know, I think it's fair to say in the last handful of years, collectively, we've been through the wringer. There's been a lot of, I think more awareness of collective trauma. What would you say to someone who's personally struggling right now? And maybe they're seeking out? Some embodied support some healing for themselves?
Nityda Gessel 53:24
Yeah. That they're on the right path, right, just that the fact that they're even seeking support is something to celebrate, again, I like to really help people celebrate what is happening right now, right, recognize that what you think it's not huge, might be pretty big, pretty significant, right? Because not everybody's looking for resources. Not everybody even knows that like, embodiment resources, like what is that? You know? So, so that's the path, that's the practice, you know, there, there's so many avenues, you could go down, I would say, think about what brings you joy, you know, think about what really resonates with you not, it doesn't have to be the same thing that this other person is doing, you know, or that your family member is doing. Right. So maybe it's yoga, maybe it's joining a different spiritual community. Maybe you go to somatic therapy, maybe you go seek herbalism you know, maybe there's shamanism. You know, there's so many different embodied practices, you know, so you can kind of curate your own you know, healing journey. So thinking, you know, think about how do you like to show up, what would bring you joy, and this process and go with that?
Lisa Danylchuk 54:41
That's beautiful. It makes me think of Trisha we had on the podcast to her she calls herself or was named by someone else, a geologist, and she's very much she's written a book called f the shoulds. Do the wants, which I just love. but she's very much about like, seeking that as an ongoing life practice. The what? amidst everything, we're all going through individually. Collectively, what gives you hope right now?
Nityda Gessel 55:18
What gives me hope is connecting to other people who are thinking about writing about and talking about the same things. Right? So community, right. So you know, I just finished writing a book on, I'm not sharing the title yet, as I told you already. It's on trauma, spirituality and embodiment, and healing. And so I finished writing that book. And I've been reading other books now. And I just picked up a book that I'm reading called Eco Dharma, and it's about Buddhist teachings for the ecological crisis. It's written by David Loy. And I just started reading it, I read through the introduction, and literally just part of chapter one. But so much of what he's talking about is the same thing. There's like so much intersectionality, between like, what we're needing to address right now, like, whether it's a racial trauma or the trauma, we project onto the earth and the land or whatever, like, there's so many people talking about the same thing. Just from their own personal experience, I read the book, A Queer Dharma by Jacoby Ballard. That was the first book I picked up when I finished writing my book, and I'm just reading it, I'm like, oh, my God, like we're talking about so many of the same things, right. But I'm not a member of the queer community. But there's just so much that's resonating, and there's so much shared experience. So what gives me hope is knowing that I'm not in this alone.
Lisa Danylchuk 56:43
Yes
Nityda Gessel 56:44
Right. Yeah.
Lisa Danylchuk 56:46
Did you ever feel that way? Like going your own way in terms of yoga and, and bringing it into clinical practice? Did you ever feel like I'm the only person?
Nityda Gessel 56:55
You know, why did I ever feel that way? It's I don't remember. But I don't feel like I ever felt that way in a negative sense. Like, I'm the only one doing this. I'm like, it's a struggle. I don't remember feeling that. But what I do remember feeling is like, again, when I moved and moved to Austin, that's when I started my private practice. So in New York and Brooklyn, I was always working at like, agency or nonprofit or, you know, I couldn't really do exactly what I wanted to do the way I wanted to do it. But as soon as I moved to Austin, and I had the space to do that people received it so well, with so much love. You know, and it wasn't people that were doing the same thing that people that were interested in what I was doing, right. But to understand, you know, to connect with people that believe similarly, and are doing similar things now. Like that, that's really what fills me up, you know. And, and I have hope because I see the possibility for transformation and that transformation. It's not that difficult, right? Like, I can work with the most traumatized individual, like somebody who has been through horrific, just the most horrendous, multiple multi-layer traumas, complex PTSD, come into my office. And on session one, we can breathe, we can connect to the earth, and there may be space, and I've seen it. For them to relax all the parts of them, that carry all the beliefs and all the shame and all the projections and all the anxiety. And we can connect to that true nature. That transformative space that we all have within us. It's not that hard to tap into, and, and certainly, each have that within us. So that gives me hope, as well.
Lisa Danylchuk 58:44
Yeah, that's beautiful. So I feel like we could talk forever. But to wrap it up, how can people connect with you?
Nityda Gessel 58:53
Yeah, I have a website, traumaconsciousyoga.com. There's no info about the book up there yet. But there will be and all the trainings I offer are listed there. I have social media. Maybe we can put that in the show notes. I have a YouTube channel was some I haven't put anything up there and forever with some really old people still watch it. And I still see that people are commenting. There's a trauma-informed yoga practices up there.
Lisa Danylchuk 59:24
Leave it up sometimes the basics you know, they they hold true over time. Yeah. Well, thank you so much for joining me here today and sharing your wisdom with all of us. I so appreciate it. And I wish you the best with the rest of your book. I know that's like a big push or a big project to move through. So I can't wait to read it when it comes out and look forward to maybe connecting with you again around that.
Nityda Gessel 59:50
That'd be great. Yeah, I appreciate the time with you today. Lisa. It's been wonderful and just sending all the listeners and you a lot of love.
Lisa Danylchuk 59:57
Likewise, thanks to Nityda.
Nityda Gessel 1:00:00
Thank you.
Lisa Danylchuk 1:00:03
Thanks so much for listening. My hope is that you walk away from these episodes feeling supported, and like you have a place to come to find the hope and inspiration you need to take your next small step forward. For more information and resources, please visit howwecanheal.com There you'll find tons of helpful resources and the full transcript of each show. Thanks so much for your messages, feedback and ideas about the podcast. I love hearing from you and I so appreciate your support. There are lots of ways you can support the show and I'm grateful for every little bit of love you share. If you love the show, please leave us a review on Apple, Spotify, Audible or wherever you get your podcasts. You can also subscribe on YouTube to get updates every week. You can always visit howwecanheal.com/podcast to share your thoughts and ideas I love hearing from you. So keep your comments coming. If you'd like to stay connected in between episodes, you can also text me the word HEAL to 888-858-0811. That's 888-858-0811. That number has a lot of eights in it. I'll send you some inspiration and support a few times a month and you can text me back there too. Before we wrap up, I want to be clear that this podcast isn't offering any prescriptions. It's not advice or any kind of diagnosis. Your decisions are in your hands. And we encourage you to consult with any relevant health care professionals you may need to support you through your unique path of healing. I'd also like to send thanks to our guests today to Christine O'Donnell and Celine Baumgartner of Bright Sighted Podcasting, and to everyone who helps support this podcast directly and indirectly. Alex, thanks for taking the dogs out while I record. Last week, I'd love to give a shout-out to my big brother man who passed away in 2002. He wrote this music and it makes my heart so happy to share it with you now.
Comments are closed