Today on the How We Can Heal Podcast, Lisa Danylchuk and Lynette Danylchuk break down trauma, dissociation & intergenerational resilience. Lynette, who I call Noonaheeyot (my sweet mama) helps us understand dissociation and what we can do to heal through these hard times.
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About Lynette Danylchuk:
Lynette Danylchuk, PhD., is a Clinical Psychologist who has worked in the field of trauma and dissociation for over 30 years. She has worked with people struggling with PTSD and Dissociative Disorders. She is a Past President of the International Society for the Study of Trauma and Dissociation (ISSTD), and has received ISSTD’s Lifetime Achievement Award. She is currently doing consultation work with therapists around the world, and completing the second edition of the book she and Kevin Connors co-authored, ‘Treating Complex Trauma and Dissociation: A Practical Guide for Navigating Therapeutic Challenges’.
Outline of the episode:
- [4:13] Noonaheeyot's start in trauma work
- [6:59] Working with Veterans
- [28:28] Understanding harm reductions
- [29:41] Complex developmental trauma and the offensive as a defensive strategy
- [42:15] What it’s like being a therapist and a parent at the same time
- [45:05] Common themes during Lynette’s 30 years of working with complexly traumatized people.
- [53:10] Advice for people who are having a hard time emotionally
Resources:
Find Lynette and Kevin’s book, Treating Complex Trauma and Dissociation: A Practical Guide to Navigating Therapeutic Challenges.
Connect with Lynettte on LinkedIn & @ldanylchuk on Twitter
Find a therapist at https://isstd.connectedcommunity.org/network/network-find-a-professional
Transcription:
Lynette Danylchuck 0:00
From the very beginning, I would try to let people know everybody belongs. Even the ones you're having a hard time with their behavior, maybe the behavior will need to change. But you know, over time, I help them understand that the fierce ones inside had a real purpose for being there. And if they weren't there, those innocent parts wouldn't be there either.
Lisa Danylchuk 0:28
Lynette Danylchuk PhD is a clinical psychologist who has worked in the field of trauma and dissociation for over 30 years. She's worked with people struggling with PTSD and dissociative disorders. She is a past president of the International Society for the Study of trauma and dissociation or ISSTD, and has received ISSTDs Lifetime Achievement Award. She's currently doing consultation work with therapists all around the world and completing the second edition of the book she and Kevin Connors co authored treating complex trauma and dissociation, a practical guide for navigating therapeutic challenges. I could say so much more about Lynette I met Lynette when she brought me into the world and I'm so lucky that she's my mama. I call her Nuna Hayat, which you'll hear me say throughout the episode, since it's pretty much impossible for me to call her anything else. I feel very lucky to have her and I'm happy to share her with you today. Without further ado, let's welcome the noona he ought to the show. Welcome back to Season Two of the how we can heal podcast. I so enjoyed sharing season one with you. And we have some incredible guests coming on for season two. I created this podcast because the hard time seem to just keep on coming these days. These guests and I have committed our lives to healing work, and to fostering health and joy in the world. Even as we work through the impacts of trauma and face deep challenges. So let's dive in and let's all keep talking about how we can heal.
Lisa Danylchuk 2:04
noona noona noona noona noona noona na na na na na na na we really getting a groove there. Okay, papi. Thanks for coming in the show. All right. No, no. Hey, welcome to the How We Can Heal podcast.
Lynette Danylchuck 3:00
Hello, Lisa.
Lisa Danylchuk 3:03
Hi, mama, thanks so much for coming on to my podcast. And you know, when I was launching the podcast, I sent out a few emails, seeing if people could guess who the first guest on the show was. And it was Gabby Bernstein. Right. And so obviously, nobody else knew that at the time. And the amount of people that guessed that it was you was very high. And so I thought, oh, good idea. I should have my mom on the show. Here we are. So I want to talk today just about your journey as a trauma therapist, download some of the wisdom you've gathered over so many years of helping people. Yeah, and just kind of share you with people I know who are listening because I feel really lucky. I think one of my biggest privileges in life is to have you as my noonaheeyot he ought to be born to, to trauma therapist to therapist, which you know, has its moments that are interesting, but it's also I think, just a huge blessing just to, to understand trauma and to to understand people in that way. So I want to share that benefit with other folks who are listening.
Lynette Danylchuck 4:11
Okay.
Lisa Danylchuk 4:13
So my first question for you, noonaheeyot. And I'm going to keep calling you out throughout the episode because I can't tell you anything else is how did you get into trauma work? When did that start for you?
Lynette Danylchuck 4:24
You know, I've actually figured that out in hindsight, because I never had the goal. Some people have this wonderful ability to set goals and go from one step to another to achieve their goals. And I've always ended up places and looked around and go, How did I get here and then figure it out. And what I figured out this one is I was born in a war housing community right after the war. So I am now calling that town PTSD Ville. Because everybody was coming back from the war, those who survived and you know, the people who were left. And that was just part of the town's culture. And we all dealt with it one way or another, people supported each other. You know, my dad was very instrumental in that. And I grew up like that. And then my main interest was in people. I would just go after being with people and teaching kids and being interested in people. And I kind of wandered around and followed my natural inclination and intuition and a lot of intuition, and found myself just learning and picking up things along the way, went to seminary, and didn't want to preach, but like the chaplaincy work with people in the hospital. Liked being there for them. And then I decided that I was actually very interested in all this psychological stuff. But I never ever said to myself, I want to be a psychologist, this is really interesting. Never. I got into graduate school. And what I was really interested in is what is health? I want to know what health is, I'm studying health, which was kind of not the main subject in most grad schools, but the one I picked, I really liked it because they basically said, you need to see the human being within themselves as they are and their family and their system. And then you need to figure out how what they're doing might be working for them. In other words, it's the whole kind of growth model that if somebody's doing something, it has to be serving some purpose, or they wouldn't be doing it. Yes. And so even they've talked about people have a shadow side, well, what would they be like, if they did not have a shadow side? How might having a shadow side actually contribute to their ability to survive and live? You know, that little boost of strength or anger that makes somebody stand up for themselves? So and the other thing that I really liked about that grad school is every professor had to share their mistakes.
Lisa Danylchuk 6:58
Yes.
Lynette Danylchuck 6:59
So and it was lovely to hear what people have done that worked and what people had tried, that did not work. And they went around at one point and said, Here's the case, everybody, give me your idea of what you would do first. And we all went around and gave the idea of what we do first, each of us wondering if we got it. Right. And the professor said, you're all right. everything everybody said is correct. And you're all approaching it a little bit differently. But that's okay. Because you are different. And there is the value of the personhood. So I think what happened is out of that grad school, I got invited to do an internship at the Vietnam Veterans Outreach Center, because at least one of the students in the school knew me and was in that situation, and thought I'd be a good match. And it really worked amazingly well. I just went in and said, Where are the women's programs? What do you have for the spouses? Where's the couple's group for these people, they need them and started doing that. But that was the beginning of people understanding PTSD. And the VA was very, very, very interested in everything they could find on PTSD. This is the Vet Center where Francine walked in on us once and said, can I try this out on your bets? Francine Shapiro.
Lisa Danylchuk 8:56
So that was EMDR.
Lynette Danylchuck 8:59
Yeah, I'm doing this thing and I want to try it out and see if it works for anybody else and you have to try it on us first.
Lisa Danylchuk 9:07
On the practitioners? On the therapists first?
Lynette Danylchuck 9:09
On the clinic on a staff.
Lisa Danylchuk 9:11
Yeah
Lynette Danylchuck 9:12
We had her in the staff and said you have to try out on us first. We let her first.
Lisa Danylchuk 9:20
Did Francine do EMDR with some of the vets? Do you remember?
Lynette Danylchuck 9:26
Yes.
Lisa Danylchuk 9:27
How that worked? Was it successful or helpful?
Lynette Danylchuck 9:30
The what she did in that Vet Center was helpful, because she really had a very clear purpose. She said, I want to work with the vets who know what happened to them.
Lisa Danylchuk 9:46
Okay
Lynette Danylchuck 9:47
Who have worked through the issues around the situation and have something about it that is stuck.
Lisa Danylchuk 9:55
Yes. Yeah, that's very clear scope.
Lynette Danylchuck 9:57
So it's very specific technique. In the context of a much larger, actual therapy, and then that worked, and then everybody misunderstood what she did.
Lisa Danylchuk 10:08
Oh, that's a whole other story.
Lynette Danylchuck 10:11
That's a whole nother story.
Lisa Danylchuk 10:14
Turns out to me so much, I definitely feel like the Apple didn't fall far from the tree, because a few things you said really resonate for me. And the first one is, and I talked about this a lot when I'm supporting other people, especially when you're in a field that's evolving, like under your feet, like the field of PTSD in psychology was and continues to, during your career and, and for myself, trauma informed yoga, like that wasn't a thing I could aspire to, in high school or even in college, right? It wasn't really a thing. And so this approach of letting things evolve and trusting your intuition, I'm like, oh, that's where I got it from. Thanks, Ma. It's great. I mean, I think it's an amazing way to, to be, you know, at the precipice of an evolving field, but it does take a lot of trust and a lot of listening to intuition. And there is, I think, there can be so much comfort in having this as my goal. And these are the 10 steps to get there. And then I'm on step three, and then I'll go on step four, and then I'll, and then I'll reach step 10. And I will have my goal. I will be a medical doctor, or whatever the thing is, right? I always think of people who are going for medical doctor, because that is so structured, right? And you have like a plan for the first 30 years of your life pretty much laid out, for better or worse going in. And, and it's really challenging for folks who are doing work that's evolving under their feet. I think, to not know, at times, and we're in this time of, you know, unprecedented unknowns. And I feel like for so many people that can bring up a sense of anxiety, or just it can, you know, shake your confidence, all those things. So, did that. Did that ever happen for you? Or were you just sort of like, this is my process? It's fine.
Lynette Danylchuck 12:12
Oh, hell no. It was it was constantly. Well, the constant thing that went through my head repeatedly at that point is Oh, shit, what do I do now?
Lisa Danylchuk 12:25
Yeah. On the ground in the field.
Lynette Danylchuck 12:28
Yes. And I remember specifically, when I got out of the vets and in the beds, that it was really nice. It was collegial. And if you had trouble or something might be difficult, they would actually have you bring a another clinician in with you. They had a sign out that said no heroes, huh? You have backup. But you go into private practice, and you're in the room by yourself. And I can specifically remember sitting with somebody who was what they then called Multiple Personality Disorder. Of course, we had no training in that because there was no training in it. And so here I am sitting with somebody. I went to Lane Medical Library in Stanford and looked it up trying to find something in a med search. Yeah, nothing. No articles. No books. So I'm sitting with this person. And I remember the moment going. Like, this one's yours.
Lisa Danylchuk 13:27
Yeah
Lynette Danylchuck 13:28
I had no idea. And at that point, what I did is I just stopped trying. Yeah, I stopped trying. And I every with everything I had, I showed up. I listened.
Lisa Danylchuk 13:41
Yeah
Lynette Danylchuck 13:42
I listened with everything I had. Trying to kind of get a sense and understand what was happening with this person. And moving with how it evolved, not it became much more comfortable. Not knowing I began to recognize it as an open field, okay, or anything could happen. And things that I would never have imagined could happen was sort of come out of nothing like creation came out of nothing. So not having a script was incredibly helpful for the therapy is sometimes made me a nervous wreck. But it was incredibly helpful for the therapy. Because I think what's happening with the people that I worked with, who were all like, had extreme cases of what they called Dissociative Identity Disorder. I would like it renamed Dissociative Identity Adaptation. Hmm, that's way better. Yeah. They knew and didn't know what was going on. Yeah. So I knew and didn't know what was going on to. But then we would work together to evolve understanding of what happened. Yeah, which I think is way better than the therapist having a conviction that they know what's going on.
Lisa Danylchuk 15:21
Right. And I know this, as a therapist myself that sometimes you think you're smart, and you develop a theory of this is what's happening. But if like, for me, I have to kind of keep that aside and stay really open and curious. And then, and sometimes, you take a hard left turn, right, like you go left at Albuquerque, or whatever. You all of a sudden, oh, that, especially I've I've found in offering EMDR, that things arise that you're like, I never could have guessed or thought that. There's no way even this person would have thought that there was something that was so meaningful in a specific memory that seems so random, but yet, it ends up being connected. So yeah, and I'm struck because as you talk about going to the Stanford library, like this is all pre internet to write like, you're doing this stuff with no training from your graduate school. No mention I'm assuming of Multiple Personality or Dissociated Association or Dissociative Identity, none of that.
Lynette Danylchuck 16:23
None
Lisa Danylchuk 16:24
So you're doing all of this, just in the moment, learning that being in that place of Oh, shit, what do I do now. And then deciding to just listen and attune and, and try to, with the client get a sense of what's happening. But that ends up being such a powerful thing, in and of itself, because I do think we, we want to have goals and checklists, and we want to have 10 things to do. And we want to have tools so that we feel so we don't feel as scared or anxious. It modulates our own feelings if we're a helper or a mental health clinician, or whatever. So it's really challenging, right to just sit there and not know, and slowly, especially when the process is slow, slowly figure it out together. Like that's not easy.
Lynette Danylchuck 17:13
Now, it's not easy. And in most cases, it's not supported, because people don't know what you're doing. And now that there's so many things with protocols attached to it, all kinds of different therapies. People automatically go down the list of what they can try. And in most, those are really great things. But with the group of people that I worked with, the problem was, it took a great deal of time to actually get to know the person. So you can't really use these techniques very well, if you don't know the person. And if somebody's dissociative, they're doing the best they can to show up but they don't know they're themselves. The way a lot of people do. There's all parts of them people inside whatever, that they're not in touch with, are they deny exist, or are they completely blocked from? So the whole, most of the therapy is helping somebody discover who they are. And if you get to the points where they have a good sense of who they are, you can use some of these techniques a little bit, but they're just techniques. They're not the therapy is especially not with this group.
Lisa Danylchuk 18:35
Yeah. You also mentioned earlier, and I share this, you know, having an orientation towards health and wanting to build health. So how does that show up? If you're, you know, working with someone, there's parts of themselves, they don't know, you know, there's a lot that you don't know, there's a lot that they don't know, there's just all this unspoken, you know, presence and in their body in the room? How, how do you approach that from a lens of health?
Lynette Danylchuck 19:06
Well, I assume that every person, every part of the person is there for a really good reason. Yeah. And it's like having been trained as a family therapist in that grad school. I, you know, I can see the person in front of me, and I assume a huge family behind them in the room. It's their internal system. I imagine everybody that I know of and don't know of is listening to me. And I don't want to leave anybody out. And that includes what we call the heavies—the real bad guys. Because, and from the very beginning, I would try to let people know everybody belongs even the ones you're having a hard time with their behavior, maybe the behavior will need to change. But you know, over time, I help them understand the fierce ones inside had a real purpose for being there. And if they weren't there, those innocent parts wouldn't be there either. So special forces, they actually took the brunt of it. And therefore the innocence is somewhere in the system has survived. So, yeah, and you know, at this point, the war is over, hopefully. And the Special Forces have to learn to live in a hopefully peaceful world right now, I think a lot of people who are dissociative, are relying on their protectors a great deal, because it just feels so scary out there.
Lisa Danylchuk 20:47
Yeah. Absolutely. And as you're talking, I'm thinking about a number of things. I'm thinking about, you know, folks who work with veterans who work with Special Forces who work with people who, who are coming back from really intense circumstances and how, how that sort of parts work shows up within them, but also how the parts work you do with a single person can apply to that. I'm also thinking about, you know, it is scary out there right now. And I just before we got on read another shooting that had happened, I think this one was in a hospital. And I mean, we've just had so many losses in the United States to gun violence recently, and I think of perpetrators and how people in general like, I don't know, a lot of people I went to school with who are like, I really want to serve perpetrators, I really want to support them and help them heal, so they don't hurt people. I can think of one supervisor I had who comes to mind and, you know, definitely worked a lot in in prisons and juvenile halls and those sort of restorative justice settings. So So there's an inclination there, but you use the word, the heavies, right. And my mind went to, well, what about the people who are are causing harm? societally? Right? And so I'm curious, and we haven't talked about this before. I'm just wondering right now, if you if you apply what you've learned from working with systems on a more societal level, and how you might see, no, how would we then talk through or include or support or treat some of the heavies in our larger society who are cars, causing harm to others and leaving, you know, a wake of trauma 10 fold and fold behind them?
Lynette Danylchuck 22:37
That's interesting. The first thing that popped in my mind is the black man who went to talk to the kkk people.
Lisa Danylchuk 22:46
Oh
Lynette Danylchuck 22:47
That was an interesting, I never got to read the whole thing. But they're, the problem in society is showing up in all these people doing incredibly violent acts and dying themselves. And somewhere down in the foundation of our society, we are not taking care of each other well enough. Because that kind of an effect regulation skill. Not learned the rage, and the despair. What happened to these people that it got so out of control? Yeah, so if you think about how we raised children, we this society believes in Independence was just bullshit and comes to human beings. We are interdependent. We need each other. We need to be in loving, nurturing relationships. For years, we're not fully mature until our mid 20s
Lisa Danylchuk 23:50
40s. Hahaha. I just thinking here myself. I still got you noonaheeyot and I will forever
Lynette Danylchuck 23:58
Forever. But development goes forever. Human Development extends forever. But you know, this just the brain doesn't get to a point of of mature the so called maturity until mid 20s.
Lisa Danylchuk 24:12
Yeah.
Lynette Danylchuck 24:12
And we expect people to act as if they don't need what they physiologically emotionally spiritually need.
Lisa Danylchuk 24:22
Yeah.
Lynette Danylchuck 24:23
As if to not need was a value.
Lisa Danylchuk 24:27
Right. Yes.
Lynette Danylchuck 24:28
It's not. It's not.
Lisa Danylchuk 24:34
It's so not
Lynette Danylchuck 24:35
So if we, if we take away its human beings, it's not about producing, it's about living.
Lisa Danylchuk 24:45
Right.
Lynette Danylchuck 24:46
It's not about accomplishments. It's about connection.
Lisa Danylchuk 24:50
Yes.
Lynette Danylchuck 24:51
When people have a genuine connection, they feel valued. treated with dignity. Good old Donna Hicks. You treated with dignity. They don't behave like that. So when I'm working with somebody who has an abusive part of themselves, it's okay. Now whole person system, you have a part of you that act it out to some extent. And you look at the person as a whole, they want to annihilate this part of them. Yeah. And that won't work. However, if they want to annihilate that part of them, then there's something in their whole being that has a good moral sense. Right? So morally, they're correct in how they judge the behavior. What do you do to bring the person back into the human human community? That's where the challenge is. And I think part of the part of the reasons it's hard is that most people can't conceive of ever doing anything so horrible.
Lisa Danylchuk 26:08
Right.
Lynette Danylchuck 26:09
Completely unaware of all the microaggressions they're doing all the time.
Lisa Danylchuk 26:12
Right. Yeah.
Lynette Danylchuck 26:15
So it also takes people being aware that, you know, they're but for the grace of God or anybody else.
Lisa Danylchuk 26:22
And it takes people being aware of, like, part of what shows up for me when you're talking about this is the function of shame, right? Because it is really easy to cut off a part of ourselves and, and disconnect from it or judge it or call it wrong or bad, it's possible to do that with people too. And then it to try to not feel the shame of it. But you know, and that goes back to sort of guilt and shame, you're talking a lot about differentiating behavior from people. And if we can learn to hold the guilt of I did something wrong, or I hurt someone's feelings, or I did something that harmed someone else, if we can sort of metabolize that and change our behavior. That's a step in the direction at least of having empathy for when folks, you know, create larger harm. And I recognize that this is I think this is really challenging, because it's so easy. And a lot of what we're taught from from a number of angles, is good and bad and right and wrong, right? We're not really taught the gradients and the color palette of, of context and texture in between. But when we can get to know ourselves well enough to recognize any internalized parts of ourselves that are harming ourselves, or we're harming other people, and we can work with that. I mean, in yoga, it always comes back to a Ahimsa or peacefulness, non harming, right, like having that be a practice internally is a lifelong effort. And that's something that I think is a bridge, to some degree, at least have empathy and context for, you know, how do we how do we bring people into the fold, and foster, you know, prevention, ideally, healing when it needs to happen? And and that's big. I mean, that's, I think it's a really big ask, in the face of, you know, terrorist attacks in the face of the things that we've been experiencing here in the States recently.
Lynette Danylchuck 28:28
Yeah, it's a challenge. It's a world challenge. And I think one of the problems is we all want it done now. Yeah, we want a quick fix, and there is no quick fix. There are things that people and governments could do to us harm reduction. That's what we do in the field. First thing we do is harm reduction. We got something that's very dangerous out of control, we do harm reduction, and then we work at the underlying problem until we no longer need that, that takes a lot of time with a person takes a lot of time with a society. But first step is harm reduction, help people, you know, stay away from dangerous situations de-escalate, you know, get the deadly weapons out of their hands when they can't handle things. You know, the the kinds of things that just are common sense, harm reduction strategies. I think one of the things that's going on in our society now is the fear levels go up, and people go into more defensive positions, and get more weapons scattered their fear for themselves, and that actually makes it worse.
Lisa Danylchuk 29:41
And understanding that can be helpful because I think a lot of what I've learned as a trauma therapist, you know, in training from my right to right brain attunement from you and, and beyond. But but really more I think, recently as an adult, is like, you know, I think of myself as like a teenager and someone who had sort of complex developmental trauma who went to my school, I might see them as a bully and feel very threatened and scared by them, right? Because they have all these defenses out, right? And they're there on the offensive as a defensive strategy, right? And I think over time, really learning to see people who are like, so now if I see a picture with someone strapped with guns around them, I think, what are they trying to prevent? Like, what are they afraid of? Rather than, oh, they're so scary to me. I mean, I still feel that but, but even more, so I feel what, why? What, what purpose? Is this serving for you? And I don't know that a lot of people are raised or encouraged through education to ask those type of questions, right? Like, what why do I need this? What is it? How is it making me feel? Right? Those are like, not everyone gets that. And how does that make you feel? Out there? Right, but if they did, it'd be like, Oh, well, how does it make me feel to hold this? And how does it make me feel to whatever the behavior is? Having that insight, I think really helps.
Lynette Danylchuck 31:13
Yeah, I mean, if you if you recognize that people, everybody I've ever met, is doing the best they can with what they have and what they see and what they understand. And if their behavior looks off it okay, then what is it that they are attempting to do with that? Now? I think the desperation, despair and terror in the society is really high. Yes. And we also have a culture that glorifies violence in you know, movies and things. You get, you know, this is this is how you handle difficult situations. No, that's a cartoon. That's not the complexity of human life. So when somebody starts talking about dignity, between nations, and how you treat each other with primary, we all have this basic dignity as human beings, and you start there, everything shifts. And in most cases, we're not there at all. We're all backed into defensive places, and reacting without ever defensiveness defense mechanisms we use. It's also really interesting for people to know what their defense mechanisms are. You know, what do you do first? You run you go numb. It's fascinating.
Lisa Danylchuk 32:42
All right. I was just thinking, Delia and season one was saying, people used to say, oh, you're crazy for going to therapy. And she's like, I think you're crazy for not going to therapy, like learn what your what your MO is, and how you respond to things. And it helps. It helps us to just understand ourselves and each other a little more.
Lynette Danylchuck 33:04
At least if we, if we're self aware, self awareness is a hallmark of health. Because if you're self aware, you actually have the ability to decide whether what's coming up in your mind to do is really a good idea or not. Yes. You have that nice little screening mechanism. Say nice note, say it like that. Yes, yeah.
Lisa Danylchuk 33:34
So you were also alluding earlier to while you were talking about, you know, how we care for each other how we care for infants, I'm curious how you feel like attachment folds in to all of this. And that might be in how it applies to the work you've done with individuals, how it applies to our society more as a whole. What are what are some maybe dynamics or things you see there?
Lynette Danylchuck 33:58
I think it's a fundamental for human beings. We are completely helpless babes in arms for almost the first year of our lives. We are completely dependent on other human beings. And that's not only physical, it's emotional. And then we've got all these studies that say the the gaze, the eye gaze, the distance is perfect for focusing and in relating to mom, dad, you know, siblings, whatever. That baby's brain is creating the connections for connection and compassion and getting reflected back as to who they are and they're valued and they're cherished and they just soak that in and that is a wellspring of resilience and satisfaction and just connectedness inside. It is a hallmark of a healthy person is to have either a secure attachment or an earned one that they want worked on later on, because if they don't have it, that's what we do in therapy, long term therapy with the people that I worked with, who were, whose childhood was a disaster zone, they have to be in therapy to learn how to be connected to a safe enough person long enough to develop that feeling of earned secure attachment takes a while. But if you have it when you're born, and the family thinks you're the best thing that ever happened, you know, and you're cherished, and people light up when you walk into the room. Wow, what a difference that makes. And people who have the really violent people have cold or absent mothers and judgmental fathers are absent. It's striking. It's striking. You want a terrorist. You go to an orphanage, and you pull some of those kids. Not a good orphanage. Not caring for people.
Lisa Danylchuk 36:04
There are loving ones out there too.
Lynette Danylchuck 36:06
Yeah
Lisa Danylchuk 36:07
I was thinking of when I was in, in Tibet, where there was like, a mom and dad figure for this whole family of like, 17 kids and teenagers, and they can have a really loving feeling. But if you have that lack of parental figure, and or that, you know, absent parent, the judgmental parent, like that, then there's none of what you just described, there's none of the oh, hey, here you are, I'm so happy to see you. There's no connection. There's, there's no sense of safety, right to just be yourself.
Lynette Danylchuck 36:40
And there's no there, the the wiring in the brain doesn't happen. That crucial wiring for connection with other people doesn't happen, which is tragic. Because you end up with people who have no ability to feel connected to another human being. So what do they do in the world, it doesn't really matter, because it doesn't really affect them. They'll do whatever. I suspect, they've got they, they don't have the wiring for compassion or connection. And they are potentially very dangerous.
Lisa Danylchuk 37:16
And that's where that earn secure attachment comes in. Yeah, and this was so much of my work in graduate school was like, just having one counselor or coach or someone who sees you supports you recognizes your strengths and talents, right? And that can be during development, great. If not, it can be a therapist or therapeutic group. But that is so valuable, right? And it's it strikes me because I feel like people talk about therapeutic skills as like soft skills, right? It's like, Oh, these are people skills. They're soft skills. And it's like, when you put it in this context of how well no, it can actually prevent psychopathy. Like...
Lynette Danylchuck 38:00
Yes. Yes.
Lisa Danylchuk 38:02
That's a pretty hard skill. That's a it's definitely a valuable one. Right? It's definitely a very valuable one. Because I feel like when people say soft skills, they're also sometimes there's a little current of dismissiveness to it like, oh, yeah, but what can you really do? And it's like, well...
Lynette Danylchuck 38:16
It's the base for your life. It's a baseline for your life. The other thing is, that is part of the society problem that devalues love, care, support and the human connection, and values. Productivity. And people aren't products. You know, we're all basically born on this planet, and we walk the earth for as long as we're here, and then we're not. And, you know, we're all fellow passengers on the planet at the moment. It'd be nice to hang out nicely with each other.
Lisa Danylchuk 38:52
Definetly
Lisa Danylchuk 38:52
If you're into this podcast, I've got more goodies for you. My audio book yoga for trauma, recovery theory, philosophy and practice just came out on Audible. You can search for my name or for yoga for trauma recovery on Audible app or site and you'll be able to download the free intro there. I'm also offering the first ever live summer training intensive in yoga for Trauma Recovery this summer. Why for to live is for wellness professionals and people seeking to facilitate healing through embodied practices. We'll be able to connect, discuss, reflect in real time and practice yoga together for six sessions over three weeks this summer. I'm super excited about this. And I'd love to invite you to join you can get all the info at how we can heal.com/live. That's how we can heal.com/live.
Lisa Danylchuk 39:48
So you mentioned attachment. And I'm just really curious about this. And I want to frame this question with like No shame for you know, I know parents feel guilt like the second their child is born that they haven't done everything perfectly. But what what are your thoughts on sort of general parenting advice to let kids cry it out or just even sleep training stuff? Do you have thoughts about that?
Lynette Danylchuck 40:16
Yeah, they had that going when, you know, I first had that Mike. And they said, and I tried it for 15 minutes, and then it felt totally wrong. Yeah. And no, you don't let a child cry it out. Because they shut down. That's not good. A child's cry is the only communication they have. They can't do anything for themselves at that age of infancy. They can't get up and take care of their own needs, they need somebody to help them. And they may need food or changing or something. They may just need to feel held. You don't have to do anything. But they need to be connected to you. Because they are a helpless human infant. And if you put a human infant down in the wild, that's life threatening.
Lisa Danylchuk 41:14
Right.
Lynette Danylchuck 41:16
So if you put a child down in the dark and leave their nervous system does not know that you're coming back, or that they're in a safe place. So they cry, and you come and you pick them up and you reassure them. And over time they get the pattern that this was okay, and you're coming back, and then they go to sleep.
Lisa Danylchuk 41:39
Yeah.
Lynette Danylchuck 41:41
In some cultures just you don't even put a baby in a separate bed for the first year or so. I mean, why? Save yourself a lot of getting up. Hahaha
Lisa Danylchuk 41:52
So it's more about soothing them. And that that connection and that presence.
Lynette Danylchuck 41:56
Yeah. And you want to let them know that if they reach out and need need you that you're there, that they don't have a need that, you know, a cry in the dark with no response is an abandonment. I heard Steven, say it?
Lisa Danylchuk 42:15
Yeah. So what's it like being a therapist and a parent at the same time noonaheeyot?
Lynette Danylchuck 42:24
Well, you know, it was helpful in some ways. And then it was I think the most challenging thing was finding out what happened to other people. What could happen to people, and knowing that, you know, we have influenced but not control? Yes. It was a kind of a split screen at times, because you'd be in a situation and you'd be somewhat reflecting on it. But you didn't weren't reflecting on it enough to be out of it to help yourself with how you're reflecting on it. So there were even more ways to feel guilty than if you hadn't had the information. And if you do have the information, it doesn't necessarily mean that you're going to be able to do things the way you want. Because you're an influence, you're not in control.
Lisa Danylchuk 43:23
Right. So and you're a human being and it's much easier to you know, provide a certain presence for someone an hour, a week or in a day than full time all the time.
Lynette Danylchuck 43:38
Yeah. And I think you know, no therapists will tell tell a mother to you know, if you're started cooking, just tell your kids you quit hahaha
Lisa Danylchuk 43:48
I'm not cooking anymore. Figure it out. I remember when you were in graduate school, you were adamant about having us have homemade meals, you didn't want us to have frozen meals. You were very like, lasagna is still a comfort food for me for that reason, right. In the mush the mush you used to make with the rice and like a stew or gravy kind of sauce. Yummy.
Lynette Danylchuck 44:09
Yeah. You know, it was like, in that part, I never plan this is what happens with some people because I'd plan to do I just did one class a year for you know, so I could be home. But then at the very end, the laws changed. So you had to complete everything with a certain amount of time. So I had to do everything all at once, which was not the plan, but either do it this way or let go of everything. Which I really resented the lawmakers for. But you know, for that sort of handling? Yeah, for that amount of time was like how can I manage the whole thing and I was young enough to be able to manage it. Okay. I could never do something like that now. But that's where I think the educational system was not taking into consideration anybody with a life or family thing else. So that was hard. That was really hard.
Lisa Danylchuk 45:05
Yeah. So. So I'm curious, any themes that show up for you? I mean, you spent 30 years doing clinical work, you have a lot of experience with some of the most complexly traumatized people. What are some themes that that have emerged in terms of what you've learned in terms of just what's helpful for folks? I think we've touched on a few of them already. But I'm curious if there's anything else coming to mind?
Lynette Danylchuck 45:32
Um, well, the first thing that's coming to my mind is this thing I've thought of, not that long ago, is that we train our brains to think and figure things out. And then we're going into training the body and all that. And this whole thing about top down bottom up. And what really feels right to me is you have to integrate the two of those and come from the center out. You really have to do the work and your life, from your heart. That's where it's at. And that includes all you know, and all you feel and your intuition, and the present situation. And that's a challenge. Because sometimes, you know, it's easier to try to back away from the feelings or think about it or do what people do. But to think about integrating, how we think and what we know, with our physical wisdom, what we're picking up and then come from a centered, heartfelt place with other people. And that's, you know, really treating them the way we would want to be treated, really practicing a certain amount of vulnerability, which is also always highly valued and pretty scary at times. And recognizing the difference between fear that is a challenge and fear that is a danger. This difference.
Lisa Danylchuk 47:16
That's a big one.
Lynette Danylchuck 47:17
Yeah. So if you recognize the fear that you feel as a challenge, go for it. Right. And that's, that's a very different experience than fear that's making you back away. Follow your intuition.
Lisa Danylchuk 47:37
Mmhmm
Lynette Danylchuck 47:38
But most people automatically back away from anything else feels scary. And then they missed the challenges.
Lisa Danylchuk 47:44
Right. So it's learning to identify like, when is this a fear response towards something that all that'll help me grow? Versus when is this a fear response towards something that, that there's a real threat here. And that's hard when you factor in vulnerability, right? Because I think we feel if we're stepping into something that could help us grow, emotionally, or even in our career, it can feel like that level of threat, right? Especially if we've experienced abuse or bullying. It's like, well, those voices come back and you go, oh, I can't do that thing. Because it isn't safe. Right? We have based on experience, we feel like it isn't safe, although the circumstances may have shifted.
Lynette Danylchuck 48:31
Yeah. And that's when the body will automatically go into a fear response. If there's been a history there. And then the mind acts like the good parent and comforts the frightened body and said that was them. This isn't now, this isn't the actual danger. This is a challenge. And people can learn to do that they can and they can also learn the difference and how it feels to pick up on dangerous cues from another person. Yes. Or just that that person looks like somebody I used to know who was dangerous, but I'm not picking up this. You know, I'm triggered because they look like them. Are you picking up that signal.
Lisa Danylchuk 49:16
Yeah. No, that's tough. That's some real discernment right there. Can you think of a personal example from your experience or maybe a general sort of story from someone that's shared with you have of differentiating that? Like how, how would you coach someone who's really stuck and not sure what's happening?
Lynette Danylchuck 49:40
What I usually do because it comes up a lot is okay, what is the same? What is the same? What are you picking up? That's the same, that feels dangerous was the same. Okay? Do you notice any difference? What's different? What's the same? What's different? Look at those and sometimes haven't write them all out. What's the same what's Different, how important is the same stuff and how important is the different stuff. Because the same stuff might be, they look like the person that hurt them, what's different? Well, the energy is really different. And they're being very polite, and everybody seems to get along with them. And you know, personality wise, they appear to be very different. Okay? Notice that and continue to notice it. And continue to notice it. And don't make yourself do anything that goes against your feeling of physical safety. But continue to challenge how valid that is in regard to this person, check it out, check it out, check it out, you're not gonna go off a weekend with this person, but you just got to check it out, you're gonna observe them, you're going to pick it up. And so you're honoring your system, picking up on potential danger. And if it's not accurate, you're calming it down gently. Because if another person walks in, that's dangerous. You want it on guard again.
Lisa Danylchuk 51:14
Right. And it's making me think to have when I used to work with teens who were experiencing commercial sexual abuse, and it was in Oakland, and I would take them to the supermarket, we would go get lunch in different restaurants and things and I remember, like walking into Whole Foods with one of my clients, and someone approaching us that I got immediate, full body, like emergency vibes, like do not engage distance yourself. And, and my client was very oriented to them. Right, like, engaging and then like, oh, hi, how are you? And I was like, nope, nope, nope, we're going this way. And so that's almost like the reverse of learning. You know, when is that safety gauge on? And when is it off? And when is it flipped? And, and that was a really interesting part of that work? Because we would have to, I would have to sort of describe, this is what's happening for me, are you what are you feeling? Right? It kind of felt like a mess. It felt like a soup of like, how, how do we work our way through this?
Lynette Danylchuck 52:22
Well, you got up you had a person who was probably into a fawning response. Yeah. Because if you have a perpetrator, than quite often the one that's being abused in order to, you know, damage control, there'll be fawning to this person. Hi. And, you know, all this kind of stuff. Because it minimizes the danger, right? Yeah. But if you're not in a relationship with them, you have your response, like, holy shit.
Lisa Danylchuk 52:54
No, no, no, no,
Lynette Danylchuck 52:56
No, no, no, no, no. Yeah. But people who've been raised like that are in that they, they know how to appease the abuser to minimize the damage. Yes, it's survival.
Lisa Danylchuk 53:10
Yeah. 100%. So what would you say to someone who's just struggling right now? We've been through a lot of collective trauma in the past few days, weeks, months, years. What What advice would you have for someone who's just having a hard time emotionally?
Lynette Danylchuck 53:30
Make it as quiet and peaceful as you can as you can tolerate. Which means for some people put on music that kind of takes you to a different place, or go for a walk or pay for you with your dog or, your cats. Do things that give you a break, because when there's trauma coming at you and at you and at you and at you, it drains your whole body, mind spirit, it drains you out. So you're running on empty, and that's why it feels barren. And, you know, there's nothing there after a while, burned out. So you need to actually set the rest of the world aside that you're not immediately interacting with and find ways to feed your body, mind and soul. Yeah, you know, I remember you saying it once you need to come from a place of fullness, which is true. That's when you do your best work. And this is a long term project. So in order to sustain yourself in this process, you have to sleep well. Eat well. Get exercise. Find some joy in something in something. It might be. You just saw this amazing flower on your walk or something or you talk to a friend or you heard the birds chirp or something. You know, it can be little it doesn't have to be big but to pay attention to those things and let them feed you. And then you know, to not buy in to the helpless, hopeless, nothing will ever change mindset.
Lisa Danylchuk 55:12
Yes, it's always changing. Always. So I have two follow up questions for that. One is what would you say to someone who's maybe just realizing maybe they're experiencing some dissociation? And they're maybe it's unclear? Where would you point them in terms of resources or next steps?
Lynette Danylchuck 55:35
Ah, good question. Dissociation is a circuit breaker. It's when things get overwhelming. You leave. And so for people, if they've got dissociative issues, dissociative identity, adaptation, or depersonalization derealization, I'd send them to ISSTD, find a therapist list and get a therapist. And I would also say really look at your life, and what may be adding to your stress that you can take out of your life. Recognize your nervous system is on overload. So it's blowing fuses, and you're going somewhere else. And I know that a lot of people when they're in that space, they will actually like, go into the computer, the media and stuff. And clutter their brains up even more. Yes. And take a walk, you know, move your body, calm your mind, move your body, the brain is short circuiting move the body. Yeah. So yeah, and this is not easy, because, you know, the brain wants to what about this? What about this? What about this? No, all the time. Remember, people getting caught up in the stuff on the internet. And so just track how you feel? Yes, when you do a lot of that or less of it. Track how you feel.
Lisa Danylchuk 57:27
Before during after I mean even even for myself, I'll find myself going, you know, maybe I'm logging into email to look for something and I see something else or I'm logging into social media to it for a purpose. And then you get sort of swept away as we do. And then it's like, oh, my mood just shifted. What was that about? What did I scroll past? What did I see? What am I ingesting Okay, time to logout. And sometimes it's clear, oh, that thing was upsetting or, you know, because you can scroll and see, the baby was born and someone died and someone's lost and someone's kitten and like, it's just this vast array of human experiences. And, and I think if you are ingesting them, or attuning to them, it can almost feel like really jarring, emotionally, sometimes. And when something big happens in the world, then we'll have everyone's response and processing of that. And so, I've definitely even notice that just in terms of like, a simple 30 seconds on my phone, I'm like, whoa. I just got sucked in, and I was good. I was like listening to music and cooking dinner. And then I went, Oh, I need to text someone, oh, look at this notification. And I got swept into like, now I don't feel good. Interesting, right? And so, you know, you can process that you can you can resource that. But I think so much of the time we barely even are aware that that just happened, right? We'll just sort of turn grumpy or, or take it out on someone nearby or whatever we do, right? Sort of half consciously or subconsciously. But yeah, noticing that, like how how things feel moment to moment can be so powerful.
Lynette Danylchuck 59:05
Yeah, and I think for people who dissociate, what happens is they leave.
Lisa Danylchuk 59:11
Yeah.
Lynette Danylchuck 59:12
And then when they come back, it's like one of the basic things is okay, take care of yourself when you come back. And then when you have the chance, see, if you notice what may have made you leave, don't get into it.
Lisa Danylchuk 59:35
Right, don't go right back there.
Lynette Danylchuck 59:37
Don't go right back
Lisa Danylchuk 59:38
It happens all over again.
Lynette Danylchuck 59:39
Okay, now I'm not going there. So if it's that kind of thing, maybe you need this kind of thing over here. So yeah, it's but a lot of it has to do with how and this is the challenge for dissociate people who dissociate is to be aware of yourself. You have to be aware of yourself enough in order to know how to take care of yourself. And so people are dissociating, if they at least know I'm dissociating, I'm leaving. That means my circuit breakers are going off and I'm, I'm overwhelmed by something and I don't even know what is fine. If you don't know what, just calm yourself down any again. And be gentle with yourself. Be gentle with yourself.
Lisa Danylchuk 1:00:25
Do you ever find because you that calm yourself down? Do you ever also find that you know, you mentioned movement or music like people also need? Because sometimes with dissociation there's that like numbness or sort of shut down? Do you ever find things that people look to for for more energy?
Lynette Danylchuck 1:00:45
Um, I knew some vets that would go scuba diving in shark infested water
Lisa Danylchuk 1:00:55
Hahaha
Lynette Danylchuck 1:00:55
That was not great idea.
Lisa Danylchuk 1:00:59
I'm thinking more along the lines of, you know, I'm feeling really heavy. I want some upbeat music or I you know, because I think in the yoga world, there is a lot of emphasis on calm, calm, calm, calm, calm. And, and sometimes I've even experienced, you know, there's like judgment against a fast vinyasa class, or an athletic practice or movement, or, you know, oh, well, that's not calm, therefore, not helpful. When, you know, when I see people get really activated. And, and I think this is different, right. I'm thinking about how we sort of trace back through what our nervous system is doing. And so if we're at a place that's kind of shut down, sometimes I feel like we need to trace back through some activation to find that sense of peace and common connection, right? So I see people go to like, and Meghan talked about this in Episode 12, or yeah, Episode 12, of season one, after the Boston Marathon Bombing. How she would go to these, you know, intense classes, because she needed to move some energy, right? So I feel like there's that, you know, bringing it down, and then there's sometimes needing it. Right? You're bringing it up to come back down, right, like not going diving with sharks necessarily. Not necessarily hopping in the water with the sharks, but but finding something that like, almost reverse processes that.
Lynette Danylchuck 1:02:31
yeah, I think what you said is if somebody is really highly activated, what the guys doing the motorcycle running whatever they went above what they were going into in a in an attempt to kind of be in charge of it. But that is just actually making it worse. But if they were able anybody is able to come up to close to the level of activation that they're in, and then bring their body and respiration everything down with them. So you know, I could think of people could put on some really fast music because their dance for a while and then slow the music down. And slow the music down until you're doing something a lot smoother and more regulated. Until you feel like you could actually sit down and relax for a moment. Genuinely.
Lisa Danylchuk 1:03:32
Yeah. But that's exactly what Kira talked about last season too. She works with kids and does yoga and she talked about like clapping really fast clapping then slowing it down and then waiting like that moment of pause. Oh my god, you're gonna clap you're not gonna clap. And then everyone's still she's got like a whole room of kids and they're like, waiting for it. Yeah, that's yeah, helpful transition.
Lynette Danylchuck 1:03:55
I think we talked about this before too with people that I worked with who are highly highly activated and they'd be talking really fast and they will end up here and high pitch or that kind of a little bit. And you know to go up Whoa, you're really really really active not as high but almost get close enough to reach them and then go me know I'm really having a hard time understanding what you're saying.
Lisa Danylchuk 1:04:20
Wondering if we can slow it down a little bit.
Lynette Danylchuck 1:04:22
Any I really need you to slow down a bit so I can hear you I really want to hadn't you have a seat here? You know, Would you like something glass of water or something? Right. And you know, you know, it works when they go
Lisa Danylchuk 1:04:39
right? The breath the spontaneous breath.
Lynette Danylchuck 1:04:42
Ways breath.
Lisa Danylchuk 1:04:45
Yeah, I know last time we were talking about this, I said to like, I remember having a therapist who did that like but but she didn't meet me where I was I came in and was like, I'm really, this and that. And she was like, so what I'm hearing is and I was like Oh my god, you just double you just like my parents are trauma therapists and you just double triggered me with low slow talking while I'm not feeling that way. And so what I'm hearing is a double whammy would have worked better if she had, you know, met me met where I was, and then slowed down the pace of conversation over a few seconds minutes, right? Like, because I wasn't in, in this moment, I still don't think I was, like, excessively activated, I was just like, energized and telling a story. And then, and she just brought it way down without ever meeting me where I was. And I was like, Oh, this isn't gonna work. I can't have someone who's like, just so trying to modulate me with their voice, but that's maybe a unique, you know, growing up with therapists?
Lynette Danylchuck 1:05:51
No, I actually think it's something that, you know, I know, that I learned over time is that if you don't meet people where they are, you know, they can't most of them with a lot of ones I dealt with can't meet me where I am unless they switch, which is not what I'm wanting them to do. Right. You know, so we have to meet them where they are and help them move to where they want to go. You know, because we have know where they want to go and take them at their pace.
Lisa Danylchuk 1:06:30
Yeah. Okay, so I'm going to sneak in an extra question, which is for anyone, we talked about attachment, we talked about connection? What about for folks who are feeling like, I'm feeling really disconnected? Or maybe my attachment stuff is coming up? What are some words of wisdom for them?
Lynette Danylchuck 1:06:50
Be kind to yourself in the midst of that? Yeah. I mean, literally, if there's no one around, give yourself be as kind to yourself as you possibly can be. You know, it's really, really hard at times, some people don't have someone around, and they need human comfort. So to give it to themselves as much as they can. And then when they have the opportunity to connect with other people do so. No, but I think when people get in that position, quite often, they abandon themselves, too. Yeah. And you don't have to do that. You can kind of go, this sucks. And I'm here and I'll be as kind to myself as I can.
Lisa Danylchuk 1:07:41
Right to stay with yourself.
Lynette Danylchuck 1:07:43
Yeah, stay with yourself, as kindly as much warmth and compassion as you can.
Lisa Danylchuk 1:07:50
That's beautiful. So what gives you hope, at this point in your life at this point in the world,
Lynette Danylchuck 1:08:01
There are so much going on, which women gaining their voice in their power. Young people not going into old systems. Men feeling freer to not take on the old role. Women not taking on the old roles. The whole upset around gender identity has, I think to do, with rigid roles that were not good for anybody.
Lisa Danylchuk 1:08:30
Yeah.
Lynette Danylchuck 1:08:31
And the system is reverberating with all kinds of old stuff and new stuff emerging. It's a crisis period. And crisis means opportunity. So I think when people look out there, and they see all the stuff that's going on, that's scary and frightening is to take as positive a step as they possibly can be, as all of us together, taking positive steps is going to make a difference.
Lisa Danylchuk 1:09:00
Yes
Lynette Danylchuck 1:09:00
Everybody counts.
Lisa Danylchuk 1:09:06
Oh, noonaheeyot, we could talk for much longer, but I think we're gonna wrap up. I just have one more question for you, which is what's inspiring you these days? What are you working on? How can people connect with you?
Lynette Danylchuck 1:09:19
I am finishing up I and Kevin are finishing up the second edition of our book. And that should go to the publisher within a few weeks. And I'm doing consultations with therapists around the world actually. Which is rewarding and taking nice long walks. And I have a whole accumulation of books and puzzles and fun things to do. And hanging out with family is the best and hopefully COVID will go away enough so that we can go travel and spend time together and all that I mean it is still a very beautiful world.
Lisa Danylchuk 1:10:00
Yes.
Lynette Danylchuck 1:10:00
So looking forward to exploring more.
Lisa Danylchuk 1:10:04
Yeah. And can you say the name of your book?
Lynette Danylchuck 1:10:08
Treating Complex Trauma and Dissociation: A Practical Guide to Navigating Therapeutic Challenges. That's because they wouldn't let us name it, oh shit, what do I do now?
Lisa Danylchuk 1:10:23
So you can type that one into your search engine you but the title is oh shit, what do I do now? Treating complex trauma.
Lynette Danylchuck 1:10:35
Treating complex trauma and dissociation. Yeah.
Lisa Danylchuk 1:10:41
Do you have it? Do you want to show it for folks who are watching on video?
Lynette Danylchuck 1:10:44
Yeah
Lisa Danylchuk 1:10:45
You can describe it. The nice rainbow colors. And then the white text black background. Love it. Thank you.
Lynette Danylchuck 1:10:54
I'm almost done with that.
Lisa Danylchuk 1:10:56
Always another project.
Lynette Danylchuck 1:10:58
Yeah, the treatment guidelines.
Lisa Danylchuk 1:11:01
Success is the opportunity to do more work.
Lynette Danylchuck 1:11:05
Yeah, absolutely.
Lisa Danylchuk 1:11:07
You retired but you have not slowed down much. You know, just maybe a few more walks happening. But lots of work.
Lynette Danylchuck 1:11:13
Yeah. Not very good at retirement. Hahaha
Lisa Danylchuk 1:11:18
Well, thank you for sharing your wisdom with us, noonaheeyot. I so appreciate it. I love you tons.
Lynette Danylchuck 1:11:24
I love you too
Lisa Danylchuk 1:11:29
We'll have to have you come back.
Lynette Danylchuck 1:11:31
Yeah. Thank you.
Lisa Danylchuk 1:11:35
Thanks so much for listening. My hope is that you walk away from these episodes feeling supported, and like you have a place to come to find the hope and inspiration you need to take your next small step forward. For more information and resources, please visit howwecanheal.com There you'll find tons of helpful resources and the full transcript of each show. Thanks so much for your messages, feedback and ideas about the podcast. I love hearing from you and I so appreciate your support. There are lots of ways you can support the show and I'm grateful for every little bit of love you share. If you love the show, please leave us a review on Apple, Spotify, Audible or wherever you get your podcasts. You can also subscribe on YouTube to get updates every week. You can always visit howwecanheal.com/podcast to share your thoughts and ideas I love hearing from you. So keep your comments coming. If you'd like to stay connected in between episodes, you can also text me text the word heal to 888-858-0811. That's 888-858-0811. That number has a lot of eights in it. I'll send you some inspiration and support a few times a month and you can text me back there too. Before we wrap up, I want to be clear that this podcast isn't offering any prescriptions. It's not advice or any kind of diagnosis. Your decisions are in your hands. And we encourage you to consult with any relevant health care professionals you may need to support you through your unique path of healing. I'd also like to send thanks to our guests today to Christine O'Donnell and Celine Baumgartner of Bright Sighted Podcasting, and to everyone who helps support this podcast directly and indirectly. Alex, thanks for taking the dogs out while I record. Last week, I'd love to give a shout out to my big brother man who passed away in 2002. He wrote this music and it makes my heart so happy to share it with you now.
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